StingrayLust

So I've still been back and forth on which way to go with my engine. I think rebuilding the stock is pretty much not going to happen. LS engines are nice but not the direction I want to go. Almost considered going BB, but I'm not there yet.

The Dart SHP really has my attention. I've done several Google searches and see a lot of builds used the retro-roller lifters which I can't understand why when the block is made for the cheaper, regular roller lifters. Is there something I'm missing?

I've emailed a few people on here about some old threads where they mentioned a Dart SHP 406" build, but most were replying to other questions so they didn't list a parts build and what machining they had done.

I've been looking at some of the cheaper short blocks that are internally balanced with some below the $4,000 mark. Dart will build a short block for me but it's close to $4,400. Place like this, it almost seems too cheap: http://www.tristarengines.com/catalo...shp-block.html

I'd like to see some responses from those who've built an engine with the Dart SHP. Did you have any machining done and what parts did you use.

I also see lots of builds where they use a high volume or high pressure oil pump when Dart specifically says not to use one. Why?

SL

63mako

I have been involved in these builds. Dart SHP block is ready to go. Already stroker clearanced with correct rods, only machine work needed is torque plate hone cylinders to fit pistons and check all dimensions and clearances. The Tristar engine uses a cast crank. I would avoid this in a 406. I would also go 6" rod. Check CNC motorsports. This is a good combo, 10.4 to 1 compression with 75 CC heads and a great company. http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/short...1-pistons.html There are upgrade factory spyder type roller lifters that fit this. Link bar lifters are heavier = disadvantage. I would recommend these, good stuff, reasonable price. http://www.coloradospeed.com/morel-h...-pr-32269.html

StingrayLust

Yes the TriStar engine uses a cast crank, but the forged 4340 (doesn't specify mfr, probably Eagle?) crank is only an extra $500 option.

So for $3,695 I'd supposedly have a 4340 forged crank, H-Beam 4340 rods (doesn't specify length or mfr., probably 5.7"), and 2618 forged pistons (no brand specified). Technically an all forged bottom end.

I've seen the CNC site before, looks like good stuff.

I just keep wondering why several sites I've seen with builds use the retro lifters when this block accepts OEM roller lifters, there must be a reason as it looks to be more expensive for the retro stuff. As you said, the link bar would be heavier so why use it?

I've also seen several of the builds using a cam button. Again, I have to ask why when there's the roller cam retainer option built right in?

63mako

I know there are issues with many of the offshore "forged" parts. Eggshaped rod ends and crank journals, not weight matched, inferior fasteners, Cranks improperly indexed, Pistons not low expansion "piston slap". I have used the Scat crank and rods and the Mahle pistons with excellent results and also CNC Motorsports so I recommended them. Can't say about anything that don't post the manufacturer but if they don't post it they are not particularly proud of it either. Tri Star might be great, might not be.
The only reason I see to use the retro cam, lifters and cam button is if a builder had or bought an overstock or got a price break on quantity purchases. In any case with a 406 I would go forged and internally balanced for the relatively small overall price difference. A lot of people build an engine and, a year or two later want more power or RPM capability. If the bottom end is solid and right future problems are minimized. Good luck.

StingrayLust

I did some more digging and may have found a reason to use the retro-lifters instead of the OEM, and that depends on the lift of the cam. I read a thread on a Camaro site where someone mentioned that a Comp Cam tech said to use the retro-roller lifter, but non-retro camshaft (didn't know there was such a thing). He thought maybe that was due to the lift of the cam and that the OEM lifter didn't offer enough room to move whereas the retro-lifters would.

Crazy or sane argument?

76strokervette

If you use a small base circle cam the lifter will come out of the factory retainer on the base circle.The lifter bosses are raised from a factory block also so you'll have to take that into account too.From my experience there seems to be a better selection of retro fit cams.Horizontal bar lifters are made for higher rpm limits and higher spring pressures with different valving.Getting the correct valve springs and lifters for your cam choice are the most important thing. FWIW my cam was only offered in the retro style.

garygnu

saw a 427 sbc short block at competition products for $4300 .it uses a dart block .shipping is extra.part # pvtsb427100.

ssenay72

http://shop.whiteperformance.com/SBC...-427SBC652.htm

StraubTech

OEM GM lifter locating system of spider and dog bones are limited to .365" lobe lift with OEM lifters bodies. Any more lift and it will bind.

71scgc

I'm doing an SHP build. It's gone really slow lately (stupid life). A friend that was helping me has done a couple of builds on Little M Dart blocks said the SHP was better, and if he was to do another build, would use an SHP.

I consider that a big endorsement. 63mako's endorsement was what sold me though.

Carter

StingrayLust

The 427 shown is way over my budget, but SW does have some other short blocks that are tempting, it's definitely on the final list.

StingrayLust

Do you have that right, .365" lift? I read on another board someone mentioning this: The .530 seems like a more normal max lift height than .365". Are you sure you didn't mean .565" instead?

Another thread mentions just keeping the lift below .550" and rpm's under 6500.

StraubTech

LOBE LIFT. The lifter rides on the lobe. .365" is the max lobe lift. You are speaking of valve lift. With a 1.5 ratio on .365" lobe lift you have .547" valve lift. With .365" lobe lift and 1.6 ration you have .584" valve lift.

VALVE LIFT The limits here are spring coil bind and top of guide to bottom of retainer clearance.

StingrayLust

Yes I skipped over that important word and just saw lift. This article seemed to pretty well sum a lot of my questions regarding this issue: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...k/viewall.html

So the main thing to take away from this is that the retro-roller lifters can handle bigger, > .365", lobe lift? So if you've got a setup that needs large valve lift, retro-roller lifters are the only way to get there?

Well I guess not quite. I read that there are what's called "long travel" lifters that allow the use of the OEM spider setup and can handle greater than stock lobe lift. Crane has some, #10535-16 or is it #16535-16? But holy crap, those suckers are expensive, $700. So at that point it's no longer cost effective to use the OEM setup, the retro-roller lifters are just as expensive. I guess it all comes down to the lobe lift required.

It's slowly starting to come together.

StraubTech

They make Retro fit tie bar lifters with .700" wheel and they make retro fit roller lifters with .750" wheel and the Chinese stuff is somewhere close to .680 to .705 depending on the ebay set you buy.

I would not recommend any .700" wheel lifter for a cam over .365" lobe lift. I would recommend a .750" wheel lifter for whatever profile you want to put it on.

StingrayLust

I assume, most likely incorrectly, that when you say .700" you're talking about the actual roller wheel diameter or circumference? I don't usually see that listed in specs, normally just the "outside diameter" which I assume is the diameter of the hole they sit in.

bluedawg

Shp 400":
4.125" bore
3.75" stroke
Callies Compstar 4340 crank
Callies Compstar 6" h beams
Maulhe forged dish pistons
9.2 compression, which isn't the best but was an ordering error.
Afr 195 eliminator, 64cc chambers, in retrospect 210s would have been better.
Comp xe288hr
Lunati lifters, don't have the part number on hand but if I were going to do it over I'd either go with the larger OD Morrells or a limited travel lifter.
Rpm air gap
Prosystems Holley 780.

I have a Straub hydraulic roller that I'm going to try this winter along with a single plane intake, 3.70 gears and hopefully a set of 1.75" primary headers. Even with the faux paus on the pistons it runs mid 12's @108.88 with out the needed tuning that I seem to never get to complete at the strip for some reason, this is through a 700r4, 2400 rpm lock up converter which is the stock size, 3.08 rear gears and street tires. It's very street able and has a some what agressive lopey idle. My only real regrets are not going 3.875" stroke, afr 210 heads and pistons for 10 to 1. But it drives on alaska crap gas. My goal an is high elevens. I do have a blower that I might put on in a couple of years when I get board. Good luck and looking forward to your build thread.

DO MA NEU!

bluedawg

Make sure to triple check there numbers as far as advertised compression ratios, but definately a good company, good dudes for sure.

DO MA NEU!

StraubTech

Yes, .700" is the wheel diameter. OEM's use .700" to design lobe profiles. Aftermarket the std is .750" for most.

StingrayLust

I got a quick response from TriStar about what the $500 forged upgrade gives me:
So for only $3,695 I'd have a fully forged bottom end with "decent" manufacturers, Scat and Icon.

That seems like a pretty nice deal and they're located in Baldwin WI which is only about an hour away from me.