GTR1999

Hey guys I have about 900 miles on a starter that was rebuild by my friend who used to be in the business. We replaced the fields,brushes, solenoid, bushings, bendix,shifting fork and had the armature turned. so far I got stuck twice with it. The first time was after driving for 20 minutes and the car sat for 1 hour. Turned the key and forgot to turn on the ignition so it cranked for about 5 seconds. I stopped turned the ign on and then nothing-completely dead! I waited about 5 minutes and tried it again and it started. I thought it was heat soak but it was after an hour and the starter had a heat wrap around it. It worked fine about 2 dozen times afterwards until tonight. I drove it to a cruise- about a 40 minute run. Parked it and went back about an hour later to leave and again nothing, I tried several times still nothing. I had to pull the heat wrap off and used a screw driver to jump from the battery across to the inner terminal and it cranked. I then tried it and it started fine. I drove home parked and tried it several times right away and everytime it started. I don't think it's heat soak since it fired up after the drive without the heat wrap. Anyone know what would bind in the starter or solenoid?
Thanks,
Gary


[Modified by gtr1999, 10:56 PM 7/20/2002]

73454

I've been there.
I simply used a heavier spring in the solenoid and it solved the problem.

Good Luck

GTR1999

Thanks 73,
I'm still not sure it's heat soak but I'm going to pull the starter out anyway. I'll see if NAPA has a HD spring or if it's a GM only part?
The heat soak problems I've had in the past were right after I shut it off and then tried to start again in a few minutes. These two times the car sat for over an hour, I thought that would be enough time to cool off?
Gary

FINWOLF

I had the same thing it was the wire from the ignition switch to the starter was to small in diameter it could not handle the amps when the starter got hot it wants too pull more amps put a heavier wire on no problem ever again. If you can jump the starter to start it is not heat soak been there and done that.

GTR1999

Interesting point Steve. I had no problem once I jumped it with the screw driver. What's involved with the placing the wire? Does it go from the solenoid direct to the ign switch? Thanks,
Gary

Taijutsu

I'm confused! I thought a lighter spring was the answer? I just had this problem. Here is the part # 1958679 for AC Delco. Hope this helps, the # is good.

mrvette

In 40 some years of driving, and my first car being a '60 vette, coming from a GM 'family' so to speak....in all those years, never, not even ONCE has a failure to start been anything but bad electricals...switches, wires, battery, corroded terminals, whatever....but 'heat soak' is a damn urban myth far as I"m concerned.....guys can beleive whatever they want, but facts of the matter are, IF you have full available voltage across the solenoid wiring, this is the smaller key controlled wire....don't forget the newtral start switches in line there, the VATS for a C4 and the rest of anything Nader can dream up...IF you don't have full available voltage at that solenoid....it's dead or dyeing sounding....you all can talk about it being a hot heat soaked starter alls you want, that ain't it....it's a connection problem....
or a bad battery....

GENE

FINWOLF

Gary my car is a 1965 so I don't know if the c3 is the same but the wire went straight from the switch to the starter. My wiring has been cut up for over 30 years this winter I will have the hole wiring sys redone on the hole car.

Barry's70LT1

Must be something also about 40 years of driving GM vehicles.
I tend to agree with Gene.
I have never had a "heat soak" problem.

I have headers on my vette, with the "original" starter still installed.
It always spins fast, hot or cold. Original wires as well.

Wires don't wear out !!!
The connectors on the ends do get bad connections.
Check the ends.

Barry

mrvette

Thanks, Barry, but I will say one thing, on this second set of headers here on this vette, I had the collector want to rest right up against the stock, starter motor proper....now I did cut the pipes and move it off an inch, sometimes things just need changing...;-)))

GENE

FINWOLF

Barry your right wires do not wear out mine were all changed do to other owners making changes to the wiring. See my car is custom many years in to one car and a lot of wire have been changed so that is how mine got a small wire to start with. These car are so old you don't know what people have done to them.

lars

gtr -
I agree with the guys above - the whole "heat soak" thing is a myth. When the starter & solenoid get hot, the current draw tends to increase. The wire than runs to the "S" side of the solenoid has to support a current draw of about 20 amps. Its size is marginal, at best, to support this current, so any corrosion of the wire at its ends, and any broken wire strands, will degrade this wire rapidly.
Also: The C3, using the battery located behind the seat, has a very long set of battery cables. If you have any corrosion of the battery cable ends (it may not even be visible), the resistance of the cables goes up dramatically, and you will have "heat soak" problems. I've been installing the big heavy duty "00" cables on all the cars I've been modifying, and this has completely eliminated the "heat soak" problem.

GTR1999

Hey Lars,
Thanks for the input, along with everyone else, I appreciate it. I have new battery cables on the car and the battery is good. It was fully charged and I tested it with a load tester. I have to get a schematic out and take a look at the wiring. When I was stuck the key was dead to the world-nothing. I pulled the cap with the key in the run position and had spark at the points. I then bumped the solenoid but a quick jump fromthe + post to the inner post. After I got it to move it turned over with the key and fired right up. I drove it for a 1/2 hour stopped it and it started 3-4 times in a row. So I don't think it's heat soak but more of something hanging up in the starter?? I will check the wire ends at the starter though, they are the orignal terminals and may need attention.
Thanks again. I'll post what I find,if anything.
:cheers:
Gary

Tom454

Here is OHM's law.... E=I*R, or voltage equals current times resistance.
As copper heats up, its resistance goes up... it has a "positive temperature coefficient of resistance".

As the wires get hot, the resistance goes up, and the current goes DOWN since voltage is relativley constant at 12 to 14.5 volts.

Less current means less available torque to turn over the engine.
I have been driving my 70 454 here in Raleigh over the last few days in the high heat, and as the day goes on, it turns over slower & slower & slower. After it cools, it spins fine again.

Gary... are you sure you replaced the solenoid?

The solenoid has a copper disk in it that serves as a contact... it tends to pit at the contact point. If you rotate the disk, or replace the solenoid, you may find that your problem goes away.

The pitted disk causes an intermittant high resistance which reduces the current available to the armature, and the result is slow (or even no) turning.
Just another possible cause.

Tom





[Modified by Tom454, 7:40 AM 7/22/2002]

mrvette

Tom454, Frankly, I"m too lazy to look up the temp coefficitnt of copper, so I take your word for it that it's positive, but in any normal temperature range encountered by less than plastic melt temps in an engine...I say that resistance variation is well within the specs....and the starter parts should work normally....

GENE

Tom454

Well.. I'll just have to politely disagree with you Gene...

My starter is in perfect condition, as I rebuild starters as well. I never buy a new or rebuilt starter.
And mine definitely "heat soaks" here in Raleigh, and it never did this in the northern states where it is 15 to 20 degrees cooler on the average.

As far as the resistance thing goes... I'm sure we have some electricians and electrical engineers here on the forum that can verify what I posted.

My opinion is based upon both experience and "book" knowledge this time... so I 'm stickling with it. As the field coils and armature windings heat up, the resistance goes up proportionately, This causes a high resistance, and low current condition, low current means less torque available to turn over the engine.
Not that it means anything, but I completed one year of EE at RIT in Rochester NY, and was trained by the IBEW as an electrician.... which involved a lot of electric motor theory... I still have all of my books and can provide you with some references if you wish.

Putting that bit of trivia aside, the bottom line is that my own LS5 starter heat soaks regularly here in Raleigh... and it is in perfect condition.... up to spec.

Woodstoc

Try this. Take your neutral safety switch out of the circuit next time this happens to you. Easy enought to do by unclipping the connector and jumping. If your car starts right up, this is it. When my car was hot, 3 times out of 10 or so it wouldn't start. Let it sit for a 1/2 hour and starts right up. Turned out to be the switch getting hot and wouldn't make the connection sometimes.
I agree with the debate about the "heat soak" issue. I am not saying that a starter here or there has too tight of a tolerance and causes problems when it gets hot, but every issue I have ever had with GM vehicles not starting has turned out to be an electrical issue of some sort. :cheers:

GTR1999

Hi Tom,
Yes the soleniod was replaced for sure. I have the old one,which is pitted as you said. I was going to rotate it and use the fresh side but since I was putting everything else in new I bought the soleniod. The guy I work with called his old place and they use a small Bosch relay and wire it in. They have the key circuit close it and which connects the 12v battery ternial to the small "S" terminal. They also said it was a heat issue and have used this on vettes,camaros,firebirds,etc. I think I would have to ground it so if I go this route I may have to mount it on a plate first.
I was able to find the spring that was listed in another post so I'll try that and check the leads too. I never changed the wire ends so they may be part of the problem? I still don't know why it didn't do it after I drove home? I guess the car like to leave me miles from home! :D
Gary

GTR1999

Woodstoc,
I was wondering about that switch too. I think that was replaced years ago,but it's worth a shot. I wish I could create the problem when I have the car at home with my tools. Maybe I should put a luggae rack on and take my roll away to shows! :rolleyes:
Gary :cheers:

Woodstoc

gtr1999, that problem drove me nuts for two months and was very expensive and time consuming since I went through two starters, one alternator, battery, and security relays.

Try jumping the neutral safety out temporarily. ( please don't flame me about safety, you have to realize its jumped when you start the car, just don't start it in gear). If the problem does not occur again, bingo! Replace the switch. Real cheap way of finding out. I also insulated the tunnel under the switch in an effort to keep the temp down.