wcsinx

Somebody is hurt. When I see story after story of people claiming their boutique batteries failed in < 2 years, I simply have to wonder what the motivation is for purchasing said batteries when from my perspective I've never actually had a single problem with my Wal Mart specials.

By the way, did you notice post #2 in the thread you linked?

Or post #3

Or post #5

Should these count as demerits against your 20 year story? But I'd probably better stop there before I get banned for having this discussion with a supporting vendor.

The point was, electrolysis (not evaporation), which in turn liberates H and O gas, is a normal, expected part of any lead-acid battery's operation particularly when being charged. Though you might be onto something claiming better gaseous recombination as suspending the electrolyte in a fibrous medium might give you more reactive surface area? Is that what you were getting at?

TX-Techman

I thought I would post an update since the new Optima has been in for 15 days. I have left the battery connected and have not had the Battery Tender Jr. connected to the new battery.
I checked the voltage last night and it shows 12.6x volts.

To me this proves there is not a parasitic drain that would cause the car to go from starting to 4 volts in 4 days. I my humble opinion this is certainly pointing to an issue with the 2 1/2 year old Optima battery. I realize this is testing in reverse, it would have been great to evaluate the battery. But this method of testing is the next best thing. The car has not had anything done since the battery failed and was replaced on 4/11/14.

Even though Jim says any battery maintainer "should" work. I am wondering if the Battery Tender Jr. was the culprit and caused a premature failure.

I will continue to test the voltage periodically and post the results on this thread just for reference.

OptimaJim

wcsinx, I'm not hurt at all. While there are brands and manufacturers that could be considered “boutique” in nature based on their volume, Optima is not one of them. We have millions of batteries on the road and are by far the largest AGM automotive manufacturer in the aftermarket. As a result, there will be more stories, both good and bad, about our products. Do some people have legitimate issues with our products? Absolutely (TX-Techman could be one of them). While we strive for a 0% defect rate, we're not there. However, when the majority of warranty returns come back as discharge-only, we know many of the stories people post online are not related to the quality of their battery. For every post you can find with someone who says their Optima went bad too soon, I can show you two or three ChumpCars running on someone's “dead” Optima warranty return.

For all the intelligent people who post on forums, who have forgotten more about cars than I'll ever know, it suprises me to see so many accept these “multiple bad battery” stories as gospel. Before you start quoting people who claim to have multiple battery failures for no apparent reason, you should understand the likelihood of any person ending up with multiple defective batteries from any manufacturer. If a battery company had a 10% defect rate, they'd probably be out of business. Even at a rate that would put a company out of business, a consumer still only has a 10% chance of getting a defective battery. When they go for their second battery, the chances they would get two defective batteries in a row drops to 1%. By the third bad battery in a row they're at .1% and so on. The actual odds of getting that many defective batteries in a row is far longer and if they're beating those kinds of odds, they'd be better off spending their money on lottery tickets.

What I'm getting at with water loss is what happens in actual applications. Batteries can and do vent gas and electrolyte in charging and especially overcharging scenarios all the time. They are less likely to vent with AGM products and those that use pure lead, than flooded products that use recycled lead.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries

Roughrider

Years ago I worked for a retailer that did a big battery business...long before AGM batteries were developed. We sold a very good product with a great warranty. It was amazing to see what convoluted reasons people would come up with to get a free replacement when it simply wasn't warranted.

I actually had one "gentleman" call on the phone and ask if we did replace the battery if it ever failed. I said we did and his reply was "Well...I have one and just dropped it. I want another!" There was no dealing with him that the battery was most definitely not warranted against that. I never saw him come in to the store...for all I know he went elsewhere and bought a new battery from someone else.

Many people would walk in and take their new battery with them. Not long after some would say their battery was defective. When they brought their car we would find out it had a bad alternator or regulator. There was sometimes an argument that our battery must have caused the alternator or regulator to go bad...it couldn't have been their part bad and they made a mistake buying a battery when it wasn't bad.

I'm not saying we didn't make warranty adjustments...it certainly happened. We even made adjustments for customers that maybe we shouldn't have according to the strict rules but we kept a good name doing that. Anything man-made can be defective. All parts have a useful life and sometimes it's a long life and sometimes not.

I did find that the customers with the most legitimate gripe were the most reasonable to work with. They simply wanted what they paid for and didn't try to get something for nothing.

Maybe this doesn't add anything to the conversation here, but it was my experiences.

TX-Techman

I wanted to post this just for fun. We purchase our 2008 a couple of weeks ago and when I took my wife back over the test drive the car a second time the Delco battery was so dead it would not even open the doors. We purchased it anyway and the seller took the car to a local Chevy dealer for a battery/charging check and also a new inspection sticker the morning before we took delivery of the car. The battery and charging system was reported to be in excellent condition.

We picked up the car that afternoon and over the first week we had the car, the battery was very unpredictable whether or not it would start the car. Last Saturday I took the battery off charge and drove directly to a local parts store fully anticipating purchasing a new battery. But surprisingly their machine also said the battery and charging system were good.

I did not really believe it so I picked up a $1.99 hydrometer and brought out my trusty Fluke 87 when I got home. The drain on the battery was very low around 25ma. Moving on to the hydrometer I discovered that 4 cells floated 4-5 *****, one floated 2, and one floated only 1.

What this means is that one cell was dead and another was very low capacity. Because of this results I question the accuracy of the clip on test systems commonly used today.

The Delco battery when tested at the dealership was the day before it's 3rd birthday, by the time I discovered the battery was in fact bad, it was in the pro-rate phase and they would not honor the full replacement warranty. They said the free replacement was just 18 months instead of 36 when the battery was purchased in 2011. he also stated that the battery warranty is to the original buyer and is not transferable. He did offer a prorated cost of more than $100. I decided to do something different where I could get service easily. BTW - the previous owner had the car on a Battery Minder that was included with the purchase of the car. I am really beginning to think those things are more of a problem than anything else.

Gale Banks 80'

What Year was the Optima Battery Born ? And when did they become mainstream ? I'm trying to figure out how long I have had them.

wcsinx

Then pray tell why are automotive forums not flooded with complaints about Interstate, Die Hard, Everstart, etc. the way they are about Optimas? Yes, you're the largest manufacturer of AGM batteries, but that doesn't change the fact that you're catering to a niche market and as such have a relatively small market share. So there are 1 of 2 possibilities here. Either the Optima customers are just MUCH more vocal when they have problems or Optima batteries have a significantly higher failure rate than the industry average. Which of those seems more plausible?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2886948

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f197/...-sucks-964466/

http://www.f150online.com/forums/200...ries-suck.html

Anyway, I'm done. I feel a ban hammer swinging in my direction.

REELAV8R

Since the Optima battery costs 50% to 100% more than a standard flooded battery then the consumer expects to get something for that additional cost.
So when an Optima battery truly fails prior to it's expected life, then the consumer feels ripped off, and justifiably so.
If Optima cannot give a truly viable reason to pay more for it's batteries then why buy them?
I look for three things in a car battery; life expectany, amps available at start, and price.
Liquid, solid, infused glass mat, those don't come into the equation. Lead acid battery is lead acid battery to me.

If you charge $200 where someone else charges $120, there better be a good reason.
I would like Optima to say " Hey our battery is so good we will offer a 12 year no questions asked warranty" I'd buy one today.
So far I haven't been convinced either.

OptimaJim

Gale, they first started developing Optima batteries in 1973. Limited production for automotive applications started in 1987.

tom0079, I haven't read wcsinzx's post following your's yet, but I can see that he posted links to other forums where people posted information, much as you just did here. The information you posted about our production facility and the quality of our products is completely and absolutely false. Had I not been here to point that out, six months from now, someone else may stumble across your comment and reference it as gospel on another forum. Unfortunately, that is the way the internet works.

So wcsinx, now that I've read your comments, I want to make it clear that I've never asked for anyone to get banned from any forum, even the folks who have physically threatened me with violence. I'm sure they'd be much calmer if we met in person. You've stated we're a boutique manufacturer a couple of times now, yet you have no problem finding conversations about our products on forums, but have yet to share a single 20+ year old flooded battery link. Either we have a relatively-small market share or we don't. Which is it?

I'm not about to start bashing any other brands, because I know they are in the same position we are with many of their warranty returns (I can throw one of our coozies right now and hit people working on some of the other brands you mentioned). In fact, the issues other brands and manufacturers have with their warranties are reflected in some of their warranty terms, which are voided if the batteries are found to be discharged below a minimum voltage level or are determined to have reached the end of their useful life, regardless of how old the battery is or when it was purchased. Smaller (boutique) brands that don't have the volume we do can get away with including such exclusions in their warranties. We cannot, so we end up taking in a lot of warranty claims on batteries that having nothing wrong with them, in the interest of goodwill and customer service.

If those other flooded brands you mentioned have so much more volume and their batteries are every bit as durable as Optima's, than you shouldn't have any trouble finding a multitude of stories of 20+ year old flooded batteries, as I previously requested. Yet, all you seem interested in looking for is negative stories about our products. I understand you have a negative viewpoint of our products, but at least offer a positive alternative. Tell people about the flooded batteries they should buy that won't leak acid and damage their cars and will have “statistical outliers” that will last over 20 years like Optima does. At the very least find a few conversations posted by moms driving minivans about their battery failures last winter. I know it happened to tens of thousands of them, because we had such a cold winter and I personally changed three of them for neighbors. Perhaps the non-enthusiast segment of the marketplace doesn't care enough about their vehicles to share their battery experiences online?

REELAV8R, your concerns when selecting a battery are very typical of consumers, but I'd be interested in knowing how you determine life expectancy when shopping for a battery? As far as cranking amps are concerned, as long as they meet or exceed your OE specs, that's all you really need. Any additional money spent to buy a battery with more cranking amps than you need (or cold cranking amps for Corvettes) probably isn't necessary. Someone who has had to repair battery acid damage in their engine compartment, might be able to tell you if that expense exceeded the price difference between our batteries and a flooded product.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries

bebezote

i was going to jump in here...but wcxinx has stated my case well..and explained my exact and poor experiences with optima batteries also... carry on...

wcsinx

Jim, it's well known around these parts that criticizing any supporting vendor puts one on very thin ice.

I'm seeing that statistical analysis may not be your strongest suit.

You actually want me to? You found ONE STORY about a guy with a battery made way before Optima was sold, and you latched onto that story like white on rice despite the fact that in that very same thread were half a dozen people complaining about premature Optima battery failures?

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1219087

"The battery in my 911 died completely - one cell down. It appears to be the original - 20 years old!"

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...k-battery-life

"I checked the engine oil in the Scout the other day and realized that I was still using a 14+ year old battery"

"When I traded my 1992 Ford PU -[in 2010] in for cash for clunkers, it still had the factory battery. "

"The people I sold my Miata to last October [2010], just replaced the battery that the car was built with in 1991."

Uhh OK ... yeah what he said is false because it's Mexico not China.

I'm not sure that's better, Jimmy.

http://www.f150online.com/forums/200...ries-suck.html

"...When the Swedes owned optima, they paid us well and quality was foremost of all at all cost. JCI is the company that KILLED optima batteries, we always had 99.99 pure lead until JCI bought optima. The first thing they did was: fired all of the on staff scientists, then fired all of the PHD's, then fired the chemists, then dismantled the chemistry lab, then dismantled the prototype lab, then got rid of the pure lead and replaced it with lead with higher tin content, then JCI brought in their genius engineers and re formulated the lead acid paste, then replaced the AGM paper with lower grade paper, ex cetera, ex cetera. All of this was done within the first 2 years of their ownership! We had to fight like hell to prove that what we had when they purchased us was superior to what they had done.
we finally convinced them to begin returning to some of the successful methods Gates had originally designed, but only after making them think that it was their idea. When the U.S. plant shut down, we were using pure lead, similar to original paper and similar paste formula, however, there were many, many other changes they had made in the manufacturing process that negatively affected the optima but produced higher volumes. In my opinion, the Enersys Odyssey is, by far, the very best battery on the market today. I am aware of some of the mfg practices being used specifically on the optima in mexico, and they are not conducive to quality!"

REELAV8R

Cold cranking doesn't really concern me in the case of my corvette since it is only a summer vehicle.
It does concern me in my daily drivers.
How much is needed at -25*F on a 2008 mazda 3? Or on a 1994 Ford F-150? Beats me. All I know is it's a lot, and I want it to start when it's that cold.
CCA is only down to 0*F.
So if i even have a number like 600 amps for 15 seconds for the engine to start at 0*F that does not help me at -25*F, other than I know it's going to be more than 600 amps. It will crank slower guaranteed, as long as it's enough to start the engine that is what a guy needs when it's -25*F and 30 MPH wind is blowing.

So getting more than you need is like insurance, you don't need it most of the time, but when you do need it you really need it. That's why a person may buy more cranking amps or CCA than may be spec'd by the manufacturer.

I can approximate how long a battery is going to last based on past experience. That's all I got to go on.

My battery compartment has a plastic tray in it with a drain line to outside the car. Never have had a use for it, but I believe the intent is that in the event that some acid does seep out it will not be in the car to cause damage. Similar set-ups are in all my vehicles.

I had a Duralast that I bought from Sam's club in 2010. It had a three year free replacement warranty and an 8 year prorated warranty from that, so 11 years of warranty.
This battery started having issues after about 18 months. I procrastinated and next thing I know it's 2014. I had charged this thing up several times but would not hold a charge and the vehicle it was in was not driven regularly.
I was outside the 3 year free replacement, but took it back expecting to receive a prorated price for a replacement.
I told the guy what had gone on and he tested the battery and sure enough a bad cell.
Despite it being outside the three year warranty it was replaced for free.
Pretty good costumer service.

7t9l82

i buy a.g.m batteries for reserve capacity, i could really care less about cold cranking amps i want to know how long it will crank if god forbid something goes haywire or i leave the lights on or something equally as stupid. i have used optimas in the past with no issues and get good service out of them 6 years on one , thats in the florida heat and a friend has used it a year now. i have a new a.g.m from interstate in the vette and i think its great. and yesterday i bought a red top for my daily driver because it has so many electronic devices and a ridiculous factory sound system. we have a manufacturers rep who seems to be doing a good job of dealing with issues he is to be commended.if you don't see the benefit buy what works for you.

F4Gary

I've replaced 3 red tops, all under the 3 yr free replacement deal. Now I have no warranty on the 4th as they changed the warranty.

Makes you wonder why they changed the warranty. Must of had too many returns.

I won't buy another red top. Costco here I come next time.

brando1118

Had a '71 rolling frame dropped off at my house this week by a covered transport trailer. 55 feet long not including the truck. To get to my frame we had to unload 2 cars, a pressure washer and a Harley. The guy's winch battery died after the first car was down the ramp. I had a Yellow Top that was in my vette for a couple of years with the car driven sparingly. After that it sat in a cabinet in my garage for roughly two years untouched. That Yellow Top winched the rest of the cars, pressure washer, Harley and my frame off the truck and loaded what was left back on. No lag was present on the last vehicle loaded. I know the Yellow Top is a deep cycle battery, but I also run a Red Top in my F150 with no issues after three years. Just thought I'd give a good story after all the doom and gloom.

OptimaJim

wcsinx, lots of people have made critical comments on this forum about many supporting vendors for years without any ramifications, so I wouldn't worry too much. Frankly, I'm a little disappointed in you, as I have given you the courtesy of clicking on the links you posted, yet you apparently did not return the favor. I posted a link to a thread, where one of our customers talked about his 20+ year old Optima and provided another link to a video of another customer who did the same.

To be honest, we get testimonials like these on a regular basis and just had a guy come up to us at Googuys Del Mar last month to tell us about his 22-year old Optima. I might've been stacking the deck in my favor by encouraging you to try to match me on 20+ year old stories. In fact, even in the Studebaker thread you posted, there's a guy on there who mentioned his friend installing an Optima back in 1991 that was still running. We actually have three mobile marketing rigs that tour the country with Wall of Power display cases full of batteries like these. It seems like if we put an Optima on display that lasted 20 years, everyone and their brother who had an Optima that lasted longer feels compelled to share their story with us, which is always great to hear, but as you suggested, not necessarily typical of what most folks can expect.

Once again, your willingness to cite posts made by folks on other forums as gospel is also disappointing. We know exactly who made those comments and where they worked (contrary to Internet lore, they were not an engineer, but did work in maintenance). I mentioned to one of our long-time engineers when I first saw those comments, that he must be the Milton Waddams of Optima. He wasn't familiar with Office Space, so I had to explain the reference to him.

Contrary to what those comments suggest, the quality of Optima batteries has always been excellent, but the batteries we are manufacturing today are the best we have ever made. Optima quality has continually improved under JCI's ownership. JCI didn't build a state-of-the-art production facility to cut corners, but to make a long-term investment in their top brand. To give you a historical perspective, the tinfoil hat brigade used to suggest that JCI's acquisition of the Optima brand was a short-term move where they would cash in on the great reputation of the brand name by degrading the quality. Fourteen years and a new production facility later, those theories have all pretty much run of steam, but as long as people keep mis-diagnosing electrical issues and taking false statements as truth, new theories will keep popping up.

Instead of scouring the far corners of the internet, grabbing conversations off Studebaker forums, I'd prefer to look at conversations on this forum, that are relevant to Corvette owners. There are a lot of Vette owners here, who have had serious and expensive issues, when flooded products leaked acid in their cars.

REELAV8R, as with wcsinx, I'd prefer not to stray off topic from Corvettes onto Mazdas and F-150s. Wind speed has no impact on battery performance, so rest easy about any wind chill concerns you might have. My 2003 Excursion (diesel) is closing in on 250,000 miles and the coldest conditions I had to start in last winter were -13°F. I actually timed 20 seconds worth of cranking (not including glow plugs warming up) on multiple attempts to get the engine started. I was actually surprised at how long that really was. Back when the CCA measurement was established, vehicles took longer to start, so the test required the battery to stay above 7.2 volts for a full 30 seconds at 0°F. If your Mazda or F-150 needs even 15 seconds of cranking time to turn over at any temperature, you may have more serious issues to deal with, that are totally unrelated to your battery.

While I could understand that overbuying on cranking amps may seem like good insurance, that isn't always the case. How a given battery performs after the first month, year or several years, can vary dramatically. A battery that was rated at 1000 CCA new may deliver that initially, but only be capable of 700 CCA a year later, while another that was only rated at 750 CCA may have measured 1450 new and may still measure over 1000 CCA years later. The same is true for reserve capacity.

Unfortunately, past personal experience is often the best estimation many folks can make on how long a battery will last, as battery warranty length is a function of marketing and not necessarily reflective of product quality or durability. The problem a lot of folks run into is that their past experience often ends up being with past vehicles, particularly when it comes to Corvette owners. The electrical demands of C5 and newer Vettes is significantly higher than C4s and older, so past experiences need to be viewed in the proper context.

The fact that your retailer offered a free replacement a year into your pro-rated warranty coverage is a reflection of the associate you dealt with, rather than how warranties are supposed to be handled. I hear stories that run the gamut, from associates changing out batteries every year without testing them, to others voiding warranties (correctly) when battery voltage didn't meet the manufacturer's minimum voltage requirement. That's why I'll often tell folks who can't seem to get any battery to last more than a year or so, to seek out the least expensive battery they can find, with the longest free replacement and the most-liberal return policy. Their real issues likely lie within their vehicles, but if they're going to continue ignoring them, they should at least seek out the easiest way to keep putting band-aids on them.

F4Gary, I'm sorry to hear about the multiple problems you've been having. In addition to heeding my advice in the last paragraph, please be sure to read my previous comments regarding multiple failures in the same application, especially if you continue to have issues with your next brand. If you'd like to share more about your experiences and the circumstances surrounding them, I'm all ears. While pro-rated warranty coverage has been eliminated from our warranties, the free replacement coverage has only been extended.

brando1118, I'm glad to hear your YellowTop was able bail you guys out of a tough spot. Be sure to fully-recharge it to about 13.0-13.2 volts with a battery charger as soon as you can.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries

wcsinx

What? You can't possibly be this dense. How would I know that in the very first thread that YOU LINKED there were no less than 3 stories about premature Optima battery failure if I hadn't read it? Or did you miss that part about those coming from your thread?

And every other manufacturer has these stories too. Once again, they are statistical outliers regardless of whether or not they came from Optima. And the Optima in that case with batteries of that vintage isn't even the same company. YOU are the one that wants to latch onto these stories like gospel. Not me. DON'T EVEN TRY to pull some b.s. reversal. I know exactly what you're trying to do. I wasn't even going to bother looking up these pointless anecdotes until you pressed the issue a third time. So which of us is taking them as gospel here? You challenged me to find them not once not twice but three times. And when I ultimately capitulated to your ridiculous demand and found them, your retort can be summarized as, "Oh those don't count because they aren't about Optimas. Only the Optima battery stories count because ... well .. uhh ... because." Yeah ... ok buddy.

Ahh yes, attack the messenger. That always does wonders for your cause.


Fixed, I just want to be sure your customers know that little detail. I mean we're all about honesty here, right?

wcsinx

Reposting my previous post since apparently Jim thinks I'm somehow capable of pulling quotes out of a thread without reading it.

Somebody is hurt. When I see story after story of people claiming their boutique batteries failed in < 2 years, I simply have to wonder what the motivation is for purchasing said batteries when from my perspective I've never actually had a single problem with my Wal Mart specials.

By the way, did you notice post #2 in the thread you linked?

Or post #3

Or post #5

Should these count as demerits against your 20 year story? But I'd probably better stop there before I get banned for having this discussion with a supporting vendor.

The point was, electrolysis (not evaporation), which in turn liberates H and O gas, is a normal, expected part of any lead-acid battery's operation particularly when being charged. Though you might be onto something claiming better gaseous recombination as suspending the electrolyte in a fibrous medium might give you more reactive surface area? Is that what you were getting at?

REELAV8R

I wasn't referring to the wind chill effect on the battery but on me. I don't want to have to be popping the hood to get a jump when wind chills are -50*F.
But since you brought it up wind chill does have an effect on anything that started out above ambient temperature and how long it will stay above ambient temps. Such as a battery in a warm engine compartment or warm passenger compartment.

It's the same principle that a radiator works on. Pass air through it to increase the thermal exchange between the radiator and the air.
Take a battery at 70* and set it outside in the wind at 0* and see how long it takes to get down to 0*. Now take a battery at 70* and set it in a room at 0*. Which one achieves 0* quicker?

These were examples, not actual scenarios.

I have owned over 40 different vehicles. I currently own 11 vehicles. Everything from a bobcat to a lawn tractor to a UTV, all have varying electrical demands all have flooded lead acid batteries.
My particular 77 Corvette has a higher electrical demand than a stock unit. I run electric cooling fans. The battery only has to deal with what the alternator can't handle and starts. So it's job isn't usually too hard. That's not to say it's not important though.

You are right marketing is not a function of actual performance. It's primarily about profit per unit, short term durability, and image.
I respect that you are doing a pretty good job of fielding these comments and questions. Optima chose well in it's hiring.

don hall

COSTCO (kirkland) batts are made by Johnson controls, as are DieHard, AutoZone, AdvAuto, Interstate, and many others. Same
batt, same warranty, but much cheaper at COSTCO.

A batt kept fully charged will last longer than one that is charged periodically. A tender, or automatic charger is recommended for
batts not used daily. It is your battery, do as you please.