borgeson steering vs steering rack kits
#22
Pro
I cant see the problem with a slightly reduced (increased) turning radius.
Just flip the trottle at the same time one let up the clutch and voila, one have a much tighter turning radius then any Volvo have ever had!
//Ricky.
Just flip the trottle at the same time one let up the clutch and voila, one have a much tighter turning radius then any Volvo have ever had!
//Ricky.
Last edited by RickyBerg; 05-13-2013 at 01:36 AM.
#23
Pro
Yes the turning radius IS slightly increased but if you cant do a u-turn on an 4 lane road there must be something wrong with your setup..
What R&P unit are you reffering to?
//Ricky.
Last edited by RickyBerg; 05-13-2013 at 05:56 AM.
#24
Looking into using a GM europe (Opel/Vauxhall) electric PS unit, which are plentifull here. Issues:
- Fitting it under the dash,
- Signal to the speedcontrol box (either simulated or actual signal).
#25
Racer
Member Since: Nov 2006
Location: Tampa Bay Area, U.S.A. (Zombie Nation)
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I have had my Steeroids for a couple of years now and i can assure you that this hypotetic problem of yours is absolutely non existing.
Yes the turning radius IS slightly increased but if you cant do a u-turn on an 4 lane road there must be something wrong with your setup..
What R&P unit are you reffering to?
//Ricky.
Yes the turning radius IS slightly increased but if you cant do a u-turn on an 4 lane road there must be something wrong with your setup..
What R&P unit are you reffering to?
//Ricky.
Did some search on "hypotetic" and it seems to be a newly invented version of "hypothetical" that is not yet in the English dictionary. Thanks for verifying that your R&P installation has increased your minimum turning radius. It was the Steeroids conversion that I had at one time considered. I admit to being **** about certain safety related mods. I'll never spend time and money to increase my minimum turning radius even one inch. That one inch could lead to ruining my right front rim or getting rear ended. Unless you possess remote viewing skills you can't possibly know what I am sometimes confronted with. While my concerns may be nearly mine alone they are not hypothetical. I'm glad for you that in your area the Steeroids conversion has been a net-plus, win-win situation.
#26
Pro
Did some search on "hypotetic" and it seems to be a newly invented version of "hypothetical" that is not yet in the English dictionary. Thanks for verifying that your R&P installation has increased your minimum turning radius. It was the Steeroids conversion that I had at one time considered. I admit to being **** about certain safety related mods. I'll never spend time and money to increase my minimum turning radius even one inch. That one inch could lead to ruining my right front rim or getting rear ended. Unless you possess remote viewing skills you can't possibly know what I am sometimes confronted with. While my concerns may be nearly mine alone they are not hypothetical. I'm glad for you that in your area the Steeroids conversion has been a net-plus, win-win situation.
Well for me it was a win-win, because I am not really bothered with the very little increase in turning radius compared to the other positive sides of the installation.
Well.. No, I cant possibly know what YOU are confronted with so therefore I don't bother speculate about that.
Thanks for the English lesson.
#27
Melting Slicks
I can't speak about the Borgeson but I have a '76 with the stock steering in good shape and a '74 with a Rack Attack conversion. Both are power steering. They both track straight and true and I really have to look for differences. The turning radius might be a little bigger with the Rack Attack but I really have to look for it to notice it. Both cars go exactly where I point them on the highway. I'm not correcting for wandering in either car. If I look for it, yes there is a little play in the stock steering but I really have to look for it. There might be a inch in either direction when going in a straight line but nothing you would really notice in normal driving. I have autocrossed the '76 and the car went exactly where I wanted. I will autocross the '74 in a couple weeks so I'll see how that handles.
My opinion is that if you are complaining about loose steering in a C3, then you have worn components somewhere.
My opinion is that if you are complaining about loose steering in a C3, then you have worn components somewhere.
Last edited by my 76 ray; 05-13-2013 at 11:48 AM.
#28
Le Mans Master
I can't speak about the Borgeson but I have a '76 with the stock steering in good shape and a '74 with a Rack Attack conversion. Both are power steering. They both track straight and true and I really have to look for differences. The turning radius might be a little bigger with the Rack Attack but I really have to look for it to notice it. Both cars go exactly where I point them on the highway. I'm not correcting for wandering in either car. If I look for it, yes there is a little play in the stock steering but I really have to look for it. There might be a inch in either direction when going in a straight line but nothing you would really notice in normal driving. I have autocrossed the '76 and the car went exactly where I wanted. I will autocross the '74 in a couple weeks so I'll see how that handles.
My opinion is that if you are complaining about loose steering in a C3, then you have worn components somewhere.
My opinion is that if you are complaining about loose steering in a C3, then you have worn components somewhere.
#29
Melting Slicks
I've driven a lot of these cars over the decades and there can be quite a difference in handling from car to car. The 80 F41 optioned I had was a low mile car that had never been messed with. It was one of the tightest stock C2/C3 cars I have driven. It tracked very well and even did real well on the autocross track with 255/60/15 tires after I did some alignment changes.
Now my 75 Vert is another story. It had 75,000 on it and the PO had some shop do their "Stage II" suspension job on it. They put in new 550# front springs and a 360 glass on the back with big sway bars front and rear. Tubular nut lock tie rods were installed and heim joint strut rods in back. The problem is they left the worn out tie rod ends, idler, steering box, ball joints and trailing arm bushings. It was a mess. You didn't know where this car was going to go while driving.
So for obvious reasons I pulled all the suspension and steering front and back off this car. I did a lot of changes and upgrades. I chose to put the Steeroids on just because I liked the fact you could adjust bump steer and I know how they feel on late model cars. It is lighter too which I like. All the joints between the steering column and the rack is a little funky, but if you spend the time to get it all aligned properly, they steer very smoothly and you can't tell they are there. I already weighed in on the larger turning radius. The mounting brackets look a little light weight, but the are properly gusseted so that they are fairly stiff. I tied flexing them after mounting and before I put the rack on. If I decide they aren't stiff enough when I get back on the road, I will fix that.
My point? The stock steering when tight works very well. I haven't tried the Borgeson, but I'm sure it is nice if the rest of the car is right and people seem to like them. Many people love their racks to though. Any of these steering choices done right (I stress right!) with a properly set up car will work and make the cars enjoyable to drive.
Now my 75 Vert is another story. It had 75,000 on it and the PO had some shop do their "Stage II" suspension job on it. They put in new 550# front springs and a 360 glass on the back with big sway bars front and rear. Tubular nut lock tie rods were installed and heim joint strut rods in back. The problem is they left the worn out tie rod ends, idler, steering box, ball joints and trailing arm bushings. It was a mess. You didn't know where this car was going to go while driving.
So for obvious reasons I pulled all the suspension and steering front and back off this car. I did a lot of changes and upgrades. I chose to put the Steeroids on just because I liked the fact you could adjust bump steer and I know how they feel on late model cars. It is lighter too which I like. All the joints between the steering column and the rack is a little funky, but if you spend the time to get it all aligned properly, they steer very smoothly and you can't tell they are there. I already weighed in on the larger turning radius. The mounting brackets look a little light weight, but the are properly gusseted so that they are fairly stiff. I tied flexing them after mounting and before I put the rack on. If I decide they aren't stiff enough when I get back on the road, I will fix that.
My point? The stock steering when tight works very well. I haven't tried the Borgeson, but I'm sure it is nice if the rest of the car is right and people seem to like them. Many people love their racks to though. Any of these steering choices done right (I stress right!) with a properly set up car will work and make the cars enjoyable to drive.
#30
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Belgian,
The "returnability" of a steering system has a lot to do with the caster angle. Corvettes have an angle of about one degree, which was fine for the cross ply tyres that were available at the time. Modern cars that use radial tyres almost exclusively use a greater caster angle, somewhere from four to seven degrees in most cases.
Milling the holes in your upper A arm "cross rod" (can't think of the proper term) will allow you to position the upper A arm further to the rear and this will increase your caster angle. Check up on this from someone who has experience in this area.
I have a Borgeson in my '74 coupe and it drives like a new car. I can highly recommend it.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
The "returnability" of a steering system has a lot to do with the caster angle. Corvettes have an angle of about one degree, which was fine for the cross ply tyres that were available at the time. Modern cars that use radial tyres almost exclusively use a greater caster angle, somewhere from four to seven degrees in most cases.
Milling the holes in your upper A arm "cross rod" (can't think of the proper term) will allow you to position the upper A arm further to the rear and this will increase your caster angle. Check up on this from someone who has experience in this area.
I have a Borgeson in my '74 coupe and it drives like a new car. I can highly recommend it.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
I have the VBP offset A-arms. Currently 5 1/2° of caster. Should be plenty.
As for the box : it has been rebuilt. I put in a new pitman and sector that was available at the time from Corvette South. Maybe that's the issue. Don't know. Seems to have a really bad or difficult to find center.
Last edited by Belgian1979vette; 05-13-2013 at 02:30 PM.
#31
Melting Slicks
Hi John
I have the VBP offset A-arms. Currently 5 1/2° of caster. Should be plenty.
As for the box : it has been rebuilt. I put in a new pitman and sector that was available at the time from Corvette South. Maybe that's the issue. Don't know. Seems to have a really bad or difficult to find center.
I have the VBP offset A-arms. Currently 5 1/2° of caster. Should be plenty.
As for the box : it has been rebuilt. I put in a new pitman and sector that was available at the time from Corvette South. Maybe that's the issue. Don't know. Seems to have a really bad or difficult to find center.
#32
Melting Slicks
Member Since: May 2002
Location: Sulphur LA
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St. Jude Donor '05-'06,'11,'13-'14,'16,'18,'19
Hi John
I have the VBP offset A-arms. Currently 5 1/2° of caster. Should be plenty.
As for the box : it has been rebuilt. I put in a new pitman and sector that was available at the time from Corvette South. Maybe that's the issue. Don't know. Seems to have a really bad or difficult to find center.
I have the VBP offset A-arms. Currently 5 1/2° of caster. Should be plenty.
As for the box : it has been rebuilt. I put in a new pitman and sector that was available at the time from Corvette South. Maybe that's the issue. Don't know. Seems to have a really bad or difficult to find center.
I have them also,
Neal
#35
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I still had to do a final alignment after the car was complete again and with a full tank of gas and just did that today.
I tackled the steering a little bit different. I put the flat in the 12 o'clock position as suggested by Jim Shea and then set the toe in on the car. A lot better now, but its a little loose around center. I already adjusted it quite a lot. I think adjusting it more will only serve to decrease the steering wheel returnability.
Don't know but the price of a rack setup is quite high. I rather spend that money on a 5-speed.
I tackled the steering a little bit different. I put the flat in the 12 o'clock position as suggested by Jim Shea and then set the toe in on the car. A lot better now, but its a little loose around center. I already adjusted it quite a lot. I think adjusting it more will only serve to decrease the steering wheel returnability.
Don't know but the price of a rack setup is quite high. I rather spend that money on a 5-speed.
#36
#37
Heel & Toe
I currently have a truck Pan on but think I am going to change it due to ground clearence. I keep seeing stuff about the jeep steering box. What is the advantage to it?
Thanks
Thanks
#38
Burning Brakes
I went with Jeep because my old system leaked just as much after I repaired as before. Swapped out and eliminated the cylinder and 2 of the hoses. Closure steering ratio. You better go with a batwing oil pan or you won't have much if any ground clearance. Couple for sale on LS forum.
#40
Burning Brakes
http://www.vettemod.com/forum/showth...highlight=jeep