Chinaski

you guys and gals probably heard this one a million times....i know that a stock L-88 had more HP & torque than a ZZ4, but would a C3 equipped with a ZZ4 be able to give a stock L-88 a run for its money? considering it is newer technology and all...also, what was the "streetability" for the L-88, good cars for the road or too revy?


'74 Yellow L-48 coupe 4 speed
"bone" stock

:chevy

79MakoL82

The Big Block L-88 was anything BUT "bone stock". HP over 525HP and torque to match. There would be NO contest between a BB with over 525HP vs a small block with 355 HP. Sorry, but this is kind of a silly question. :crazy: :smash:

Fevre

dladd74roadster

The only way I know how to answer this is using this scenerio:

Take an L-88 C3, run it through the quarter. Turn around and take the engine out and install a ZZ4 and run it. The L-88 wins hands down. The L-88 was an all-out race engine. The ZZ4 is engineered to be very docile on the street while producing good power. The folks who put the L-88 together didn't give a flip about streetability so they went with 12.5 CR and a large solid, high rpm cam. The ZZ4 wouldn't have a chance. In another scenerio, if the ZZ4 was put in a car with modern technology carried into the suspension, tires, etc and the L-88 car had late 60s technology tires, suspension, etc, then who knows. It would be closer but if this is a straight engine to engine comparison, the BIG BLOCK RULES!!!! :D

dl

SuperFast80

With ALL due respect, this is a silly comparison. The L88 is elephant ammo and the ZZ4 is a .44.

67HEAVEN

Easy on him guys.......he was only dreaming (wishing / hoping). :lol: :lol: :lol:

SBR

Apples and oranges here, the L88 wins hand down in the power department while the ZZ4 wins in the streetability department.

Ganey

Hey, we did not say that he could launch while the L88 guy was laughing or lighting his cig.. Nor did we say that then he would know his engine was running & not in reverse when he heard the thundering roar of the L88 passing. Nor did we say that if he thought he heard an earthquake...

Have run a modified L-88 on the street.

:cool:

0Mike69@ECS

I'll Kick an L-88's Butt!!!! (as long as I can take his coil wire off the motor before we race! ;) )

No contest.... The L-88 would pretty much stomp a ZZ4 into the ground.... :yesnod:

Darkness

Mannn, a ZZ4, you could try a ZZ430 or even a ram jet 502, but you had to choose a ZZ4 :nono:
The only place the ZZ4 wins is in fuel econ.
Paul

Chinaski

sorry for the silly question, i am new to vettes and "real" motors...i've been driving ricers all my life...(no worries, i didn't even attempt to "trick" out my 4 cylinder cars! -- i just drove them the way they were, and i never would have even considered steppin up to a vette, or any other "real" car for that matter) this is my first vette so there is a bit of a learning curve for me...do have another question if you guys still don't mind my stupidity! were all big block vettes from 68 - 74 considered L-88 or was the L-88 a special car? my curiosity was peaked when i saw another forum member post something about an L-88 that has been on eBay for a long time. is that one so expensive because of the color combo or were the L-88's just produced in low numbers?

sorry to waste your time, just interested that is all...

:nopity :seeya

67HEAVEN

You're not wasting anyone's time. Welcome to the Forum.

If I didn't have an impatient female waiting for me right now, I'd tell you all about it. No doubt someone else will chime in.

If not, see you Saturday.
:seeya

Dave68

A Ramjet 502 or even a carburated ZZ502 would smoke the L-88 quite easily, given that the L-88's power-output was "gross", not "Net" as today's ratings are. The 502 HP that the ZZ502 cranks out is the equivalent of over 600 ponies if compared to the HP champs back in the late 60s.

Chuck Harmon

Dave68,

Are you sure about crate motors being quoted in net figures. I think they still use the gross rating for crate motors.

Chuck

BAD-L88

eleven79,

Production numbers

1967 20
1968 80
1969 116

The L-88 was under rated by the factory at 430 HP to dicourage people who were not in the know from purchasing the car. It was also not available with a radio, the first year it was not available with a heater or defroster either.

It was an expensive option at the time, about $1,000 in a $4-5,000 car.

It was a very high compression motor and required very high octane gasoline. It has a sticker in the center console that says, "Warning, this car requires a minimum of 103 research octane and 95 motor octane or engine damage may result."

Specs off the top of my head.

Compression 12.5:1 12:1 (on late '69 open chamber head cars)
Holley 850 CFM Double Pumper
7/16" beefed up connecting rods
5140 Forged Crank
Special aluminum manifold with plenum divider carved out
Aluminum heads with large valves for the day
Solid lifter high lift, high duration cam
Smaller 10.5" clutch and smaller flywheel for less reciprocating mass
Special cold air induction hood

L-88 cars were reqired to order the following:
M-22 Heavy Duty Close ratio 4 speed
K-66 Transistor Ignition
F-41 Heavy Duty Suspension
J-56 Heavy Duty Brakes

I'm probably forgetting a few things.

My motor with the stock exhaust manifolds produced 465 HP and over 450 ft-lbs of torque through most of the powerband. It turned out 540 HP and over 500 ft-lbs of torque with the headers. Rumor is it was good for 560 HP with the headers, I think we could have gotten to that figure if conditions were ideal and we played with it for a while.

As far as gross vs net, correct me if I'm wrong but gross is the figure with no accessories. Normally the L-88 has a water pump, alternator, and a smog pump (68 and 69). My car was dynoed with only a belt from the crank to the water pump. I don't know how much power would have been lost had the other two been present. We were also forced to dyno with a larger flywheel.

(Now, maybe someone would be so kind as to post the specs of a ZZ4 and all of the other ZZ's I see mentioned here. I know they are cate motors but who makes them.)

0Mike69@ECS

Well I can try to give the ZZ specs... althought at this hour of the day I cant go into that much detail!

The ZZ4 is a small block 355 hp and 405 lbs/ft of torque. (Measured at the Flywheel - which should Net somewhere just shy of 300 hp at the rear wheels.

The ZZ430 - is a special edition ZZ4 with different cam and heads - Produces 430 hp and 430 lbs/ft of torque - again at the flywheel. It's one hell of a little motor, but its no L-88. You would prob see some where around 365 hp at the rear wheels.

The ZZ502 is getting there... The ZZ502 is a Big Block. It generates 502 hp & 502 lbs/ft of torque at the flywheel. With 15% drive train loss thats 426 at the wheels from a motor that comes in a box!!! :crazy: (theyeven make one with 602 hp!!!!!!)

They are all made by GM and You can check them out here >>>> http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Crat...rformance.html

:cheers:

SuperFast80

Hey, no waste of time. Just timing really - there has been a lot of debate around here re: L88 power!

Here is your big block engine info (BB guys please correct where necessary):

1968
L36 - 427/390 (gross)
L68 - 427/400 (gross)
L71 - 427/435 (gross)
L89 - 427/435 (aluminum heads)
L88 - 427/430 (really ~550 - see my site for details)

1969
L36 - 427/390 (gross)
L68 - 427/400 (gross)
L71 - 427/435 (gross)
L89 - 427/435 (aluminum heads)
L88 - 427/430 (really ~550 - see my site for details)
ZL1 - 427/430 (L88 with aluminum block and minor changes to cam and comp.)

1970
LS5 - 454/390 (gross)
LS7 - 454/460* (advertised but no deliveries made - essentially a 454CI L88)

1971 (compression ratios drop)
LS5 - 454/365 (also rated at 285 net)
LS6 - 454/425 (also rated at 330 net)

1972 (*essentially* same as 1971 with ratings going from gross to net)
LS5 - 454/270 (net)

1973
LS4 - 454/275 (net)

1974
LS4 - 454/275 (net)

ALL of the BBs are TORQUE MONSTERS. However, the L71s, L89s, L88s, ZL1s, LS6s and LS7s had mechanical lifters and higher compression. They were race cars for the street. The other BBs were street engines.

There will be some debate here about real power output but in my experience you can say that the street BBs HP ratings were pretty much bang-on and the race-bred ones were underrated from the factory.

How much? Ask Chuck, Bad L88, 67HEAVEN and Ganey. A set of headers and 2.5" tubes and the cars were baptized.:D *If* you want real/dyno numbers on an L88, I can provide 6 or 7 examples but on this forum that is a pandora's box.

Ask us anything more you want to know. We really do like to help - the message sometimes gets lost in the medium.


[Modified by SuperFast80, 10:39 AM 5/11/2002]

SBR

Dave 68, While it is true that the L88s power rating was gross rating it was also way underrated. In fact there was a thread a couple of weeks ago of a forum members original L88 and with the exhaust manifolds it produced 465hp at the flywheel and with open headers produced 540hp at the flywheel so I do not think that a 502 will easily smoke an L88. PS the owner also said that he probably could have done better if he had done some timing and jetting adjustments.

67HEAVEN

If Sunoco 260 leaded were still widely available, I'd be building another "enhanced" L-88 (with 12.5:1 compression) rather than a ZZ502 (that environmental laws have forced me into). After all, I do intend to "cruise" to the cottage.

That's not to say that it would necessarily have more torque than the 502 that I'm building, but there's something about the sound of 12.5:1 :crazy: :crazy:

Chuck Harmon

The L88 is quite an engine. I know there exists a very small number of faster or quicker modified cars out there, but I never feel the least bit intimidated while driving next to anything else. The naysayers have never owned one, let alone driven one.

Chuck