Taijutsu

In the VB&P cat thet describe the best handling package, but not the BEST ride. If I make mine too hard the woman won't ride w/me. So far I've got from VB sway bars, smart struts, engine brace and steel brake lines. I tightened up front end w/poly bushings, new steering box and arm. I want to stay w/stock springs until the 17x9 wheels and brake package. Less unsprung weight make for lighter springs. I was thinking about the harness bar I saw in forum, but his web wasn't working. Have I missed something? What has worked for you? What should I avoid? I feel that tightening up the chassis will improve both ride and handling equeally! Any experience out there?

paso

Welcome to the forum . Your first post started off bad and just got worse. Leason # one nobody Beats up Lars He's King here. Well maybe his wife does But I think he likes It. :D It was actually the first post anybody ever said anything bad about Lars. Glad it was a mistake.:)

Captain Morgan

Welcome to the forum. I've been wondering the same thing. I'd like to have a better handling vette, but I'd hate to have a rough ride. I'll be watching this thread, hoping for some advice too.

Taijutsu

It's funny, everyone has had a comment except the MAN himself. Anyone who would set a carb "library" is top of the line in my book and gets props from me! After seeing his post, and only his post for too many times to count, I had a special problem needed a response. Most everyone saw my problem for what it was and tried to help, my thanks to all. There were a few comments that were not helpful to a person at my pathetic level of computer skill. If you will read my post again, you will notice that I NEVER made comment about anyone. I am flattered at how many forum members have taken considerable time to try and assist me in staying active w/forum. These are my first posts as Taijutsu. I had a few hundred posts as Ricisan. When I got my new "first" computer I had to change my address and a name change seemed the easiest way. I've exchanged many e-mail w/members, yours is my first real complaint. Any offence on my part was strictly unintentional. hope this clers

Black68Vette

Well I decided to go with their max handling package (but I am doing it a piece at a time due to budget constraints). I figure that with the spring rates being adjustable, I can set it light for when I plan a longer trip, or set it really tight if I am going to do some autocrossing....

ZD75blue

uh...

Soft Shocks
Rubber bushings in spots where the frame is the connection

Better Seat cushions

ddecart

Generally speaking, ride and handling are opposing desires. What you do to improve handling (stiffer springs, stiffer bushings, stiffer shocks, bigger sta-bars) are all the opposite of what you want to do to get a good ride. Want low profile tires? They're stiffer and don't ride as well either.

With older cars in particular it's more difficult to balance the two. Chassis stiffness isn't nearly as good as what it is today. Imagine the chassis/frame/body is rather flexible and not stiff like new vehicles. If I make the suspension the same in both vehicles, I have the chassis stiffness to tend with in the old car. So to compensate for that, the suspension needs to be even stiffer. This is one reason that newer cars can perform well and still have a good ride.

Getting a good ride means choosing springs and bushings that are relatively soft and a shock that isn't too stiff either. The sta-bar doesn't impact ride nearly as much, so you can balance things out somewhat by using a sta-bar to get the stiffness you're not getting from the rest of the suspension. But that does allow for more compliances in the rest of the suspension and performance won't be the same no matter what you do with the bars.

Now, everything also depends on what "good ride" means to you. Do you want it to ride like a '65 Cadillac? Probably not going to happen. Does a new Grand Prix have a good ride? Well, you might be able to get there. personally, I think my car (rubber bushings, stock sta-bars, stiffer than stock springs) rides pretty good. I've never had nor enjoyed a car with a real cushy ride though.

norvalwilhelm

I am stuck with this same dilema. I want my wife to like the ride but I want to improve the handling. I have soft springs and the car rides really nice. If I go with the 550 or even the 460 springs the ride will be alot harsher. I also do not want to lower the car. I have a deep sump pan and set of headers
down there with about 4 inches of ground clearance. I don't want to worry about hitting man hole covers, curbs, speed bumps.

SmokedTires

OK, my 2 c's.

A very stiff suspension will not result in a good handling car, and the ride will be even worse. What you want is a car that allows the suspension to move up and down (without bottoming out all the time ;) ) to follow the road as your driving, but also keeps the car flat with very little body roll. A car with a very stiff suspension will not allow the car's suspension to work as it's designed. For optimum road handling you want your tires following the road and in contact with the road all all times since it's the tires that are giving us our traction with the road surface. Front coil springs that are 350-400 lb/ ft should be enough for a street driven car. If you want to improve your handling, you should look at swaybars and tires. If stiffer springs were better, then wouldn't no springs be best?

Larger sway bars are what can make a big difference in your car's handling. With the above said, your suspension is soft enough to allow for a comfortable ride down a road, but when you start turning, you don't want a lot of body roll. To decrease the body roll, you need to install swaybars. The nice thing about swaybars is that on a smooth surface they don't don't affect the ride quality, they allow the suspension to move up & down freely as they rotate in their mounting bushings. It's when you get on an irregular road surface that you feel the affects of larger swaybars. If you drive over some railroad tracks evenly, your suspension should be pretty level going over it and the ride not feel that stiff. Now if you go over the same railroad tracks diagonally, your cars suspension should feel stiffer for the swaybars are now twisting. The larger the swaybar, the harder the suspension will feel over a irregular road surface, because your trying the twist a larger steel bar as the tires follow the road surface. For the road, 1 1/8"- 1 1/2" front swaybars are proabably going to be adequate. For the rear, 3/4" is usually pretty good.

Another thing to consider (personal experience), is that you can invest in a very good suspension for your car, but if the alignment isn't correct, it won't matter how well the car rides, it'll handle like poop. A proper alingment can be a very big difference in how a car drives :yesnod: !

Also if looking for better handling, for technology and go with larger wheels/ lower profile tires. They made in incredable difference for me.
:cheers:


[Modified by SmokedTires, 8:32 AM 4/5/2002]

Ganey

Performance is # 1 w/ me. Ride did not make the list. FE-7. Would not ask opinions. :cool:
Women's primary concerns are not cars. While they want their car to ride nice, it has never been an issue for me. :cool:

One time a woman told me her car was ruined, it had just come back from getting new tires, lowered the air pressure from 35 to 28 to fix!


Norval

W/ the additional wt. on the front of yours, 550 would be a good min.! Would go higher.

ddecart

Thanks for reminding me Ganey. If you want to temporarily go in favor of ride vs handling, drop the tire pressure down to 25 instead of 32-35. It'll make a very noticable difference for ride as it softens the tire's spring rate tremendously.

Taijutsu

I agree that this is a very subjective topic. I think most vette drivers want to feel the rubber on the road.Personally , I want compliance to come from properly matched springs not slop in chassis. I want to know what the car is doing at all times. I have tried to remove slop w/poly bushings "front",rear is not done yet. I was thinking about roll cage / harness bar like Smoked Tires. I was even considering a fiberglass rear spring in stk rate! This is why spring upgrades will be last for me. Not to mention removing some of the squeaks and rattles "silicone spray lube helps" by tightening up the whole car. This group has an undferstanding of the problem, any real world solutions? Lowering the car is unacceptable for my daily driver. My 7qt pan is wide and keeps clearance that prevents expensive noises. Back to my question, "How much can I improve ride and handling w/o tradeoff?

ddecart

One note on the spring. A leaf spring has a lot of friction in it. That means the spring doesn't do ANYTHING until the force from the tires is enough to overcome that friction.

This isn't the case with a fiberglass spring. So small bump harshness can be much better with the fiberglass spring. But without that friction in the spring, you need a better-tuned shock to absorb the motion so the spring isn't too bouncy.

I went from a fiberglass spring to a 7-leaf and it's much more harsh and less bouncy than it was with the glass spring.

Dave

Taijutsu

Back in the days when I raced Moto X the rule of thumb was "If you are not barely bottoming out occasionaly, your springs are too stiff". Has anything changed? Comfort and control at 70 will not work well at 125. I'm trying to create a Grand Touring Car. Something that is fast, user friendly as well as comfortable. Like everything else, this is a comprimise. I just want to sharpen the focus of my car.

terryrudy

Taijutsu, I have the VB&P Street & Slalom kit (approximately - I am not using rear sway bar). I have 17x8 wheels. If you're ever in the bay area (Fremont), you're welcome to check out ride quality. I think its important to get proper shocks. It really helped ride quality when I got the specially valved shocks for the fiberglass rear spring.
-terry

flynhi

After experimenting for about 15 years with my 71, here's my formula for a good blend of performance and ride quality:
Front - stock coil spring - about 280, Bilstein Sport or Koni shocks, poly bushings, VB spreader bar, 1 1/8" stabar, BFG 245/60/15 T/As on 80 Vette Alum Wheels, 32lbs air pressure. Z height per Greenwood Vette Improvement Program. Align at factory spec except for castor - set at max.
Rear - TRE 315 fiberglass spring, VB long bolts to adjust D height until half shafts are level, Bilstein Sport or Koni shocks, Poly bushings including trailing arms and diff front mount, VB smart strut bracket and VB strut rods with poly bushings, 5/8" stabar. BFG 255/60/15 T/As on 80 Vette Alum sheels. Air pressure at 32. Align at factory settings.
Body - your 74 already has rubber body mounts.
Enjoy.


[Modified by flynhi, 11:09 PM 4/5/2002]

Taijutsu

Flynhi: We seem to on the same page. My front springs are fine. The stock #300 rears seem a little soft, I haven't rebuilt the rear end yet. I have top of the line delco shocks and they are plenty firm. I remember an engineer saying "NOTHING will effect the handling of a car as much as wheels and tires. I have seen nothing to disprove this. That being said I have read from other forum members that going to 17x9.5 w/275/50 tires made a world of positive difference. Some members said it would be the first thing to do. Like many things, this is on my list. Thanks for the backup!

flynhi

Remember that moving to 17's will make your ride harsher due to less sidewall flex in the tire. Consequently, for the same ride quality, you need softer springs.
Paul Lisinsky of VB will tell you that 80% of the ride quality of a C3 comes from the rear spring. That's why I use the TRW spring.
W.

Chuck Harmon

One of the most important things to consider is the condition of your roads and the speeds you will drive on them. There is no such thing as a perfect suspension. Even racers must tune the suspension to each track they run.

I have a 5 leaf (extremely stiff), 7 leaf (pretty stiff) and 9 leaf slightly stiff) rear springs. The 5 leaf Daytona String make the car skitter around corner, The 7 leaf F41 keeps contact to the road while minimizing any lean. If the track was perfectly smooth and I was driving 150+ mph, the 5 leaf spring would be the one to choose.

The best items I have found are the poly bushings for the car. The graphite impregnated ones are best to reduce squeaks. New bushings throughout give the car a very tight, no slop, steering and suspension that make the car so much more responsive regardless of springs and shocks. I think most people would be happiest with this compared to other suspension changes.

Time and time again I have ridden in someone's shiny C3 only to be left with the impression of what a "pig" it is to drive because of the sloppy suspension and steering. A c3 may not be a ZO6, but they shouldn't be sloppy! All too often people right them off as simply old technology, this is grossly unfair to the car. Consider the new Camaros. The suspension is still very similar to the front of a C3 with only a live axle in the rear. They corner very well indeed. Tires get and deserve much of the credit, but so should the new bushings on a new car. Yet, the driver makes the biggest difference. At Sears Point raceway last weekend, the difference between the fastest street cars and the 4 cylinder jobs was generally less than 4 mph average speed difference around a 2.5 mile track. Some of the 4 cylinder Honda 2000's beat the pants of us ZO6, Viper, Porsche, and Ferrari owners.

If the springs sag, replace them. If there is too much bounce, get somewhat stiffer shocks. If the car does lean too much in corners, get stiffer springs; BUT, do so as a package. Don't mix match front and rear! Also, get the car properly aligned by a reputable shop.

Chuck



[Modified by Chuck Harmon, 3:28 PM 4/5/2002]

Chuck Harmon

ddcart,

I have mixed feelings about the glass springs after reading of the many failures posted on this forum. But, I was able to greatly improve the ride quality of the steel springs by taking them apart, cleaning up the leaves and plastic separators, and lubricating all with a dry penetrating lubricant. I even considered the British approach of making a leather sleeve to cover the spring, but not to the point of doing it.

This is now added to those items I will service every year of so. Fortunately, removing the rear spring is not much harder than removing both rear tires, so not a real big deal. This made a very big difference! I may still thing about a glass spring again at a later date, I like all the weight that is saved by using one.

Chuck