Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job...
03-31-2002, 02:19 PM
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Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job...
Steve (Frannsteve) has been restoring the body of his '64 coupe from its previous pseudo-gransport look, a process that has required the high expertise of Lars in replacing front light clips, etc. The base rough sanding process was complete, and yesterday Lars and Steve began the slow process of pre-paint applications.
Briefly, they suited up and sprayed on PPG "DP"-series epoxy primer. This was applied to seal out a lot of unknown underlying layers on the car that might react adversely with the polyester spray filler (like lacquer and synthetic enamels). The epoxy provides a stable base allowing excellent adhesion for subsequent layers of paint. The epoxy was allowed to dry for a period of two beers, after which Lars and Steve scuffed it lightly with Scotchbrite to knock down the dust nubbers. This step was followed by two thick coats of ($$$) Standox brand "PE" Polyester Spray Filler (about 4 liters). This material puts on a thick, stable layer of highly sandable filler, shot with a very large paint gun tip....one capable of firing small cats.... The polyester is something of a cross between gelcoat and good old "Bond-O". It fills significant defects, won't shrink back, and sands like butter. The car can then be blocked out and almost "scultped" to perfection.
The polyester must be primed prior to actual painting, so the next step following the sanding will be to shoot the car with a good fill-primer.
Materials alone for this paint job....a base, clear-coat application....will be $1200-$1500. Where's Earl Schieb when we need him??!! Labor, advise, psycological counseling, "management oversight", photography/documentation, and OF COURSE, malt beverages are being provided by the Colorado Corvette Crazies Crew (and Kurt's father, who isn't crazy). :rolleyes: :D
Some pics are included as usual........You will see a before and after. The after is the final epoxy coat before the polyester went on. Before and after beer bottles are self-explanatory... :lol:
******************
******************
Jeff
Ô66. Modified L72
ÒThe Silver BeastÓ
Keep on :seeya :seeya :lol:
Briefly, they suited up and sprayed on PPG "DP"-series epoxy primer. This was applied to seal out a lot of unknown underlying layers on the car that might react adversely with the polyester spray filler (like lacquer and synthetic enamels). The epoxy provides a stable base allowing excellent adhesion for subsequent layers of paint. The epoxy was allowed to dry for a period of two beers, after which Lars and Steve scuffed it lightly with Scotchbrite to knock down the dust nubbers. This step was followed by two thick coats of ($$$) Standox brand "PE" Polyester Spray Filler (about 4 liters). This material puts on a thick, stable layer of highly sandable filler, shot with a very large paint gun tip....one capable of firing small cats.... The polyester is something of a cross between gelcoat and good old "Bond-O". It fills significant defects, won't shrink back, and sands like butter. The car can then be blocked out and almost "scultped" to perfection.
The polyester must be primed prior to actual painting, so the next step following the sanding will be to shoot the car with a good fill-primer.
Materials alone for this paint job....a base, clear-coat application....will be $1200-$1500. Where's Earl Schieb when we need him??!! Labor, advise, psycological counseling, "management oversight", photography/documentation, and OF COURSE, malt beverages are being provided by the Colorado Corvette Crazies Crew (and Kurt's father, who isn't crazy). :rolleyes: :D
Some pics are included as usual........You will see a before and after. The after is the final epoxy coat before the polyester went on. Before and after beer bottles are self-explanatory... :lol:
******************
******************
Jeff
Ô66. Modified L72
ÒThe Silver BeastÓ
Keep on :seeya :seeya :lol:
03-31-2002, 02:45 PM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (Steve Straus)
Hey guys!
Looks like the freakin' Easter Bunny painted Steve's car.....! :lol: We got the PE polyester filler sprayed on the car right after you guys left, and that stuff went on so nice you wouldn't believe it. We left it overnight to cure.
I went over to Steve's house first thing this morning (Sunday) to see how the car is going to sand with the PE Spray Filler on it. Holy Easter Bunnies, that stuff sands nice... I'm SOOOOOO excited...! (credit for expression goes to C2 Forum "Kahuner"). We blocked out both rear quarters to a glass-smooth, ripple-free finish in 30 minutes flat. The fact that Steve hasn't responded to this post yet indicates that he's still out there sanding away.
Steve S-
The PE polyester spray filler is a really neat thing to use on a car that's pretty rough, has a lot of waviness to it, or where a lot of cutting, splicing, and 'glass work has been done. We layed this stiff on up to 1/8" thick in the rough places, giving us an incredible sanding base to sahpe and smooth the car. The stuff sands like butter - it's really great to work with. If you'd like an unbiased opinion of the stuff, contact "frannsteve" over on the C1/C2 forum - it's his car, and he's out there sanding away on it right now....
Looks like the freakin' Easter Bunny painted Steve's car.....! :lol: We got the PE polyester filler sprayed on the car right after you guys left, and that stuff went on so nice you wouldn't believe it. We left it overnight to cure.
I went over to Steve's house first thing this morning (Sunday) to see how the car is going to sand with the PE Spray Filler on it. Holy Easter Bunnies, that stuff sands nice... I'm SOOOOOO excited...! (credit for expression goes to C2 Forum "Kahuner"). We blocked out both rear quarters to a glass-smooth, ripple-free finish in 30 minutes flat. The fact that Steve hasn't responded to this post yet indicates that he's still out there sanding away.
Steve S-
The PE polyester spray filler is a really neat thing to use on a car that's pretty rough, has a lot of waviness to it, or where a lot of cutting, splicing, and 'glass work has been done. We layed this stiff on up to 1/8" thick in the rough places, giving us an incredible sanding base to sahpe and smooth the car. The stuff sands like butter - it's really great to work with. If you'd like an unbiased opinion of the stuff, contact "frannsteve" over on the C1/C2 forum - it's his car, and he's out there sanding away on it right now....
03-31-2002, 04:11 PM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (Carl in LA)
Carl -
We did a pretty good job of giving the entire garage a nice, light coating of primer grey/green - it looks pretty good....!
Actually, the dust will settle on all horizontal surfaces, so it's easy to manage the overspray by covering things up a little with plastic sheeting. If you don't want the stuff to stick to the floor, you can simply wet the floor down with a garden hose just prior to spraying. The DP Epoxy sprays on really thin, si it gets airborne. The PE Polyester is very thick and heavy, so there is no dust/mist or overspray at all from this stuff, but the fumes are pretty intense: We couldn't notice them through our respirators, but once we were finished and took the masks off, it was pretty powerful stuff...!
We did a pretty good job of giving the entire garage a nice, light coating of primer grey/green - it looks pretty good....!
Actually, the dust will settle on all horizontal surfaces, so it's easy to manage the overspray by covering things up a little with plastic sheeting. If you don't want the stuff to stick to the floor, you can simply wet the floor down with a garden hose just prior to spraying. The DP Epoxy sprays on really thin, si it gets airborne. The PE Polyester is very thick and heavy, so there is no dust/mist or overspray at all from this stuff, but the fumes are pretty intense: We couldn't notice them through our respirators, but once we were finished and took the masks off, it was pretty powerful stuff...!
03-31-2002, 04:56 PM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (lars)
Lars,
I'm pretty curious about this whole painting procedure, as I see myself doing it a couple of years from now.
How did you sand the car? By hand? Wet? Dry?
Do you remove things like the chrome trim around the windows (in my case, around the T-tops as well), or do you just mask them? Painting a C3 coupe, would you paint the T-tops separately? Would you remove the hood? Bumpers? Front grills?
How do you deal with hidden parts, such as the headlights and door jambs?
Thanks!
-Pedro
I'm pretty curious about this whole painting procedure, as I see myself doing it a couple of years from now.
How did you sand the car? By hand? Wet? Dry?
Do you remove things like the chrome trim around the windows (in my case, around the T-tops as well), or do you just mask them? Painting a C3 coupe, would you paint the T-tops separately? Would you remove the hood? Bumpers? Front grills?
How do you deal with hidden parts, such as the headlights and door jambs?
Thanks!
-Pedro
03-31-2002, 11:55 PM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (Pedro'74)
Pedro -
Steve is following my Paint Basics How-To paper pretty much to the "T." The only exception is that we're using the polyester spary filler to help smooth the car out due to the rough condition of some of the previous body work. I'll be more than glad to send you a copy of the paper if you don't have it already, and I'll lend you whatever assistance you need should you ever decide to give the body-stuff a shot yourself. In answer to your questions:
Initial sanding of the car is all done dry and by hand. We use 80-grit and 150-grit paper on a 16" file board to cut through the majority of the paint on the car and to get the panels fairly straight and ripple-free. Once the fill primer is on the car, we'll start going over to finer paper, and on;y the final sanding is done using 600 grit wet in preparation for paint.
Steve has removed as much chrome & trim as practical: door handles, door locks, tail lights, bumpers, etc. have all been removed. The more you can remove and disassemble, the better the job is going to turn out. On Steve's car, we are masking around windshield, rear glass, and we're not painting the jams.
On a C3, you would certianly prep and paint the T-Tops separately. On Steve's car, we are painting the rear valance, cowl grilles, and other detail parts separate from the rest of the car. Again, the more you can disassemble, the better your level of detailing will be. On his '64, we are trying to achieve a level of balance between obtaining a darned sharp-looking paint job and getting the car completed in 2 weeks....
Steve is following my Paint Basics How-To paper pretty much to the "T." The only exception is that we're using the polyester spary filler to help smooth the car out due to the rough condition of some of the previous body work. I'll be more than glad to send you a copy of the paper if you don't have it already, and I'll lend you whatever assistance you need should you ever decide to give the body-stuff a shot yourself. In answer to your questions:
Initial sanding of the car is all done dry and by hand. We use 80-grit and 150-grit paper on a 16" file board to cut through the majority of the paint on the car and to get the panels fairly straight and ripple-free. Once the fill primer is on the car, we'll start going over to finer paper, and on;y the final sanding is done using 600 grit wet in preparation for paint.
Steve has removed as much chrome & trim as practical: door handles, door locks, tail lights, bumpers, etc. have all been removed. The more you can remove and disassemble, the better the job is going to turn out. On Steve's car, we are masking around windshield, rear glass, and we're not painting the jams.
On a C3, you would certianly prep and paint the T-Tops separately. On Steve's car, we are painting the rear valance, cowl grilles, and other detail parts separate from the rest of the car. Again, the more you can disassemble, the better your level of detailing will be. On his '64, we are trying to achieve a level of balance between obtaining a darned sharp-looking paint job and getting the car completed in 2 weeks....
04-01-2002, 12:23 AM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (lars)
Hi Lars,
Thanks! I'd love to get a copy of that paper you mentioned.
This is not something I'll do today or tomorrow, but I may as well start reading about it. Maybe two year from now I'll try to build up courage to face this project. Right now I'm more concerned with things such as suspension, brakes, steering, engine... You know, make'em safe, then make'em fast, and then make'em pretty! :D
Thanks again!
-Pedro
Thanks! I'd love to get a copy of that paper you mentioned.
This is not something I'll do today or tomorrow, but I may as well start reading about it. Maybe two year from now I'll try to build up courage to face this project. Right now I'm more concerned with things such as suspension, brakes, steering, engine... You know, make'em safe, then make'em fast, and then make'em pretty! :D
Thanks again!
-Pedro
04-01-2002, 01:26 AM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (Pedro'74)
Pedro,
I have a copy of Lars paper on my website...link to it. It can also be found at http://www.corvettefaq.com. I wore out my hard copy :D.
I wished I would've used that polyester spray filler. I heard about it too late! There's another popular brand with the street rod crowd, don't remeber who makes it, but its called rustafender. I put it in long term memory after talking to a few guys that have used it, and love it. It has to go on with a large spray tip. But all these spray on fillers give great foundations to block and eliminate shrinking . If I do another car....I will certainly use one of these products. I hear you on the materials cost...good materials cost $$$.
I have a copy of Lars paper on my website...link to it. It can also be found at http://www.corvettefaq.com. I wore out my hard copy :D.
I wished I would've used that polyester spray filler. I heard about it too late! There's another popular brand with the street rod crowd, don't remeber who makes it, but its called rustafender. I put it in long term memory after talking to a few guys that have used it, and love it. It has to go on with a large spray tip. But all these spray on fillers give great foundations to block and eliminate shrinking . If I do another car....I will certainly use one of these products. I hear you on the materials cost...good materials cost $$$.
04-01-2002, 11:01 AM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (lars)
Lars,
Where did ya'll get the Standox primer? What type of filler primer did you use after the polyester primer was sanded? Did you wet sand the poly with 600 then apply the filler\primer. Can you still go with the PPG bc\cc family with out adverse effects since the polyester primer used was from a ;different manufacturer? I have your paper and have been folllowing it closely but not sure at which step I should add this poly primer as I have some rough areas that I would like to hide.
Where did ya'll get the Standox primer? What type of filler primer did you use after the polyester primer was sanded? Did you wet sand the poly with 600 then apply the filler\primer. Can you still go with the PPG bc\cc family with out adverse effects since the polyester primer used was from a ;different manufacturer? I have your paper and have been folllowing it closely but not sure at which step I should add this poly primer as I have some rough areas that I would like to hide.
04-01-2002, 02:36 PM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (wadew10)
What did you use for the fill/primer bet6ween the polyester and the base coat? Could you have just used the DP40?? :confused:
04-01-2002, 04:23 PM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (Alwyn678)
I think Lars needs to put this picture in his signature :lol: :lol:
Just keep saying to self <beer in right hand, spray gun in left, beer in right hand........>
[Modified by tshort, 8:24 PM 4/1/2002]
Just keep saying to self <beer in right hand, spray gun in left, beer in right hand........>
[Modified by tshort, 8:24 PM 4/1/2002]
04-01-2002, 04:30 PM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (tshort)
I think Lars needs to put this picture in his signature :lol: :lol:
Just keep saying to self <beer in right hand, spray gun in left, beer in right hand........>
Just keep saying to self <beer in right hand, spray gun in left, beer in right hand........>
-Pedro
[Modified by Pedro'74, 3:30 PM 4/1/2002]
04-01-2002, 04:52 PM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (Blkblt)
I have one quick question for you guys.
Why is it that the guys at Ecklers say that under no circumstance should Epoxy based primers ever be sparayed onto fiberglass to seal it?
I replaced the front lower valance on my 69 last summer that I bought from Ecklers and they included a do's and do not's of top coating fiber glass.
They made it very clear that by using epoxy based primers on fiberglass the harsh resins in the primer are absorbed into the fiberglass and then never completely dry thus causing lifting problems with your top coat or paint job down the road. I know tons of people use it so why do they make such a big deal out of it? Is there any truth to it?
Why is it that the guys at Ecklers say that under no circumstance should Epoxy based primers ever be sparayed onto fiberglass to seal it?
I replaced the front lower valance on my 69 last summer that I bought from Ecklers and they included a do's and do not's of top coating fiber glass.
They made it very clear that by using epoxy based primers on fiberglass the harsh resins in the primer are absorbed into the fiberglass and then never completely dry thus causing lifting problems with your top coat or paint job down the road. I know tons of people use it so why do they make such a big deal out of it? Is there any truth to it?
04-01-2002, 11:11 PM
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Re: Lars and Steve Start The Paint Job... (James)
James -
I haven't seen the Eckler's recommendation for not applying epoxy over 'glass, so I'm not sure what the deal is there... Here is what PPG recommends (this info right from my PPG certification class):
"DP Epoxy Primers....are recommended for use on properly prepared steel, galvanized steel, aluminum, FIBERGLASS, and......"
"This primer provides excellent adhesion to many types of properly prepared metal, fiberglass, aluminum, and plastic fillers."
PPG does NOT recommend applying epoxy primer over laquer-based primers and lacquer-based spot putties. Since many of these cars have been prepped at some time in their life with lacquer-based primer, this may be the reason that Eckler's does not recommend it's use. Also, if DP epoxy is applied over lacquer paint, the subsequent topcoat that you are putting on the DP must be applied within one working day or lifting may occur. For this reason, we applied our polyester spray filler within 1 hour of applying the DP epoxy.
There were also some questioins about what we are going to apply over the PE Polyester Spray Filler. Good question.
The PE Polyester cannot be painted directly: it must be primed with a fill primer. For this reason, we sand and "carve" the car out of the PE Spray filler with course 150-grit paper on a 16" file board. This gives us a great, smooth, even surface, with no ripples or imperfections. We then primer this rough-sanded, smooth surface with a good catalyzed urethane fill primer such as PPG's K36 or the Standox "HS" series fill primer. These urethane fill primers are thick and stable enough to fill 150-grit sanding lines easily. Once we have a coat of this fill primer on the car, it is blocked out again with 220, then given a light coat of filkl primer before being finish-sanded with 600 grit wet. We don't use the DP epoxy on top of the Polyester since the DP does not act as a fill-primer: it has no "body" to it, and it is not very sandable (it gums up).
I was just over at Steve's house a few hours ago, and we have the PE blocked out from the rear bumper to the front fenders - the car is SOOOOOO straight.! He's going to be ready for the HS Fill Primer before the weekend, and then it's in to the finsih sanding. We're painting the car on Sunday the 13th.. stay tuned..!
I haven't seen the Eckler's recommendation for not applying epoxy over 'glass, so I'm not sure what the deal is there... Here is what PPG recommends (this info right from my PPG certification class):
"DP Epoxy Primers....are recommended for use on properly prepared steel, galvanized steel, aluminum, FIBERGLASS, and......"
"This primer provides excellent adhesion to many types of properly prepared metal, fiberglass, aluminum, and plastic fillers."
PPG does NOT recommend applying epoxy primer over laquer-based primers and lacquer-based spot putties. Since many of these cars have been prepped at some time in their life with lacquer-based primer, this may be the reason that Eckler's does not recommend it's use. Also, if DP epoxy is applied over lacquer paint, the subsequent topcoat that you are putting on the DP must be applied within one working day or lifting may occur. For this reason, we applied our polyester spray filler within 1 hour of applying the DP epoxy.
There were also some questioins about what we are going to apply over the PE Polyester Spray Filler. Good question.
The PE Polyester cannot be painted directly: it must be primed with a fill primer. For this reason, we sand and "carve" the car out of the PE Spray filler with course 150-grit paper on a 16" file board. This gives us a great, smooth, even surface, with no ripples or imperfections. We then primer this rough-sanded, smooth surface with a good catalyzed urethane fill primer such as PPG's K36 or the Standox "HS" series fill primer. These urethane fill primers are thick and stable enough to fill 150-grit sanding lines easily. Once we have a coat of this fill primer on the car, it is blocked out again with 220, then given a light coat of filkl primer before being finish-sanded with 600 grit wet. We don't use the DP epoxy on top of the Polyester since the DP does not act as a fill-primer: it has no "body" to it, and it is not very sandable (it gums up).
I was just over at Steve's house a few hours ago, and we have the PE blocked out from the rear bumper to the front fenders - the car is SOOOOOO straight.! He's going to be ready for the HS Fill Primer before the weekend, and then it's in to the finsih sanding. We're painting the car on Sunday the 13th.. stay tuned..!
