Matt Gruber

If anyone else wants to bet me that my 61 doesn't get the mpg i claim with the 4165 Holley Double Pumper, i'll take the bet, anything say, $100-1000. My winnings go to charity.
We just buy 1 gallon and ride up RT 1 until it runs out.
Thanks to everyone for their comments, even billa, it helps make this place interesting.

billla

This was not Matt's claim. These were Matt's claims, just on this thread:

• 4165 is best.
• the 4165 can't be beat in terms of LOW COST, MPG, POWER and FUN to drive.
• I can compare it to converting to EFI, because YOUR GAS SAVINGS WILL NOT LIKELY PAY FOR THE EFI EVER, not if you don't lose HP (with a cheap old unit).
• That is my challenge to you . compare a 4165 to EFI

capevettes

My 68 427/390 with the 4165 Holley Double Pump seems to sip gas at about the same rate as either of my small blocks as long as I can keep my foot out of it . It cruises along very efficiently on those puny primaries.

I'll stay out of your ongoing wager

mandingo214

The shot of the elephant is great.

I agree with Billla that EFI is better than a carb, in just about all respects.

I agree with Matt that I would not swap a carb to EFI because of the expense. Billla's cost analysis is reasonable for a daily driver, but I rarely drive a collector car even 2000 miles/year. That would be a 16 year break-even. I have found maintenance on cars with injectors (my '85 Eldo has throttle body injectors) is worse than cars with carbs, if the car spends lots of time sitting. Could just be the Caddy, but those injectors get clogged up if I do not run the car every few months.

Though I am impressed with Matt's mpg, I really do not drive the cars enough to care about mileage. That is not true of my daily driver however.

Lastly, I did buy a 4165 to rebuild, just to see how it compares to my Qjet, and because I wanted to see how manual secondaries performed on my '74 454. For the $39 I paid for it (plus another $39 for a rebuild kit, which I think is a little expensive for a kit) the cost of running the test is relatively inexpensive, as Matt pointed out.

billla

Injectors have come a long, LONG ways since 1985

Golden

I'm really confused

billla

You really don't want to go back and try to cross reference all of Matt's claims for the 4165. You. Really. Don't. Not even just the ones on this thread, let alone the ones spread across the forum.

I may buy one just to see if it has healing powers, or if I rub it if a Genie will come out...

All this over one carb. A good one at that - but just a carb.

Project80

I was thinking about buying one also, even before this thread. The boys at the speed shop say that because of the 4 speed, it "may" work. The problem with the 4165 is the divorced choke instead of an electric.

Matt Gruber

This is a complex topic. Some don't think any carb can get good mpg. The carter example is welcome in this discussion. It is not my pick, but it is cheap, easy to maintain and gets excellent mpg. It is not my pick because odds are it would lose a race against my 4165, and i'm more interested in power than mpg. Also, and very important, i'm offering 34 years of experience w/4165 and can help guys get the most out of the 4165. I don't know much about the carter so i can't offer any help. So even if everyone votes the carter the worlds best carb, i disagree and can't assist in troubleshooting it.
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To all
I offer my opinions based on my experience. Guys often run off on a tangent without first ASKING if that is what i mean. Example, IMO everyone should have a good cheap DD "snow car" that has EFI and gets great mpg. This is IMO a better use of $2200 than converting a c3. Then, we will get some guy that misinterperts that; that claims i want us to sell our C3's! so when u get confused, the proper thing is to ask for more details as as Golden did.
U don't have to follow my advice, but, at least find out what todays advice really is.
And, for variety i try my best to offer DIFFERENT advice whenever possible. This is to keep from being bored saying the same thing over and over. This can rightly confuse people, and you really need to spell out your situation in detail.
And my statements are not fixed in stone. I've gone into the archives looking for some old data, and read my comments from years ago, i often wince and think, WOW my opinion has sure changed!
My best writing is on my web pages. This live forum is chat. Impulsive, in the moment stuff.
Anyone that made a copy of my web page say, 1 year ago, would find numerous changes, my goal there is to make it better and easier to understand.

71coupe454

I got my new Holley in from summit.. Went on just fine, I just have to modify the accel cable bracket a little. I dont know how it runs yet as I have developed an ignition problem. I guess I have ran the point system a little too long on straight 12 volt battery. Its like 28 degrees right now and I'm out of kerosene.. It looks great though, cant wait to hear it run! Thanks for all the advice and information!

billla

Translation: Please don't hold me accountable for any absolute statements I've made as I will never admit that I made them, nor be willing to back them up when asked.

Translation: I never work with anything else, so I really don't know anything else. When all I've got is a hammer, everything is a nail.

Matt Gruber

i use a pertronix 1181, and have kept the points in a bag in the car just in case it ever fails. 10 years so far! no adjustments in 10 years.
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Everyone should do their own research on anything they read in a chat room! I bet if capevettes didn't chime in and confirm the 4165 as a great carb, 71coupe454 might not of bought it.
Billa is lazy and wants me to do his homework. Not going to happen.

billla

No, Matt - I want you to back up your claims. You want me to pay you to validate your own claims - and that's sure as Hell not gonna happen. Especially since it's clear they're

I've done my homework; you should do yours. Lazy is never learning by working on other cars or other carbs, and just parrroting the same tired day after day. Try learning something new, Matt.

Matt Gruber

a test is to go at the lowest speed it starts to pull real hard in a low gear. in my 61 that is about 2400 rpm or more. hold at a steady speed, then floor it.
take note at the minimum speed the qjet spins the tires. compare to the 4165
2nd test is to completley let up on the gas at say 4500, note how hard it slows in 1st or 2nd, and when it drops to 2500, nail it! Have plenty of room, as it may go sideways w/4165 Keep us posted! U have a $78 tiger there
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Billa,
I'm Lazy. I admit it. I don't even have a pc. Too lazy to learn how to fix one. i use a $99 1998 webtv.
I cancelled my order for a new c6. Too lazy to make room in my garage. Too lazy to study the 3000 page service manual.
I don't have a shop, i was just jerking you around as u were acting like a jerk. I retired 7 years ago. I can do, or not do, whatever I please.
I'm not backing up my claims, because the essense of my point was confirmed by capevettes.

70ZZ3 96LT4

I am still using the same Holley 6210 spreadbore double pumper that I installed on my 68 Corvette 327/350 in 1974.
Removed the leaking QJet, the original leaking QJet was replaced when my 68 was under new car warranty. Best gas mileage of 18 mpg on interstate trip.
The Holley 6210 is a 650CFM and installs on the original intake with no adaptors, the choke works on mine hooked up to the original location of the Qjets heat spring operation mounted on the intake.

I also installed the same type Holley 6210 spreadbore double pumper on my 1970 350/300 Corvette on 1974. Would still be using it but I installed a ZZ crate engine in my 70 and the ZZ's engine came with a square bore intake. I experimented using a adapter/spacer to continue using my 6210 but not enough hood clearance when using the spacer.
Bought a Holley square bore type carb. Best gas mileage ever was a trip coming back from San Diego to Dallas, 22mpg computed on two fill ups during the trip.

Recommend not using the ported vacuum connection coming from the metering block for anything on your car. You can use a T plastic connector in the vacuum hose from the full time vacuum port at the base of the carb to supply the needed vacuum to operate the choke and vacuum advance.

68 is 4-speed M21 3:70 and 70 has turbo 400 3:08 Both have full time vacuum advance.

Matt Gruber

70ZZ3
Thanks for chiming in!
I'd like to make a note of square bore carbs that get good mpg.
22 mpg wTH400/308 is excellent! What was the cruising speed? or RPM
Can u give the List # off the air horn so i could pass along this info?

billla

Thanks, Matt. You can't back up your , and I'm a jerk. I guess that's an easy way to duck out.

No shop, huh? That explains why you declined my offer. Nope, you're not backing up your claims - because you can't.

Can you put me back on your ignore list, please? I liked it there

Matt Gruber

billa
my, u have a vivid imagination
i said i'd charge u the standard $90/hr shop rate.
That is because i can sub-contract the work.
Never said i had the shop; but they are available.
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I'll make u a deal, i'll ignore you, if you ignore me

Graemeinvette

Coming in late here with some basic advice. My Crate engine came with an Edelbrock, once the engine was run in I started on fine tuning as per the Edelbrock manual. One of the first things you have to do is reset the idle screws, i.e. take them down to zero and out to 1 1/2 turns. This was a new carb to me but I have some experience, to cut a long story short after a long time struggling to get it in tune, I removed the carb to find that the idle screws had broken through the carb wall. Now this used to be a problem in some Webber carbs so I was not wrenching the screwdriver when I was looking for zero, but the big springs they put on the srews dont help with sensetivity! Anyway net result was a carb destroyed. I cant believe that one of the main tuning elements still relies on the base metal of the carb body to provide the venturi! I bought a BG Speed Demon and the car runs great now. Just my 2 cents worth.

billla

Yeah, certainly wouldn't want you actually touching a carb.

Matt, I'd never make a deal with you because you simply wouldn't honor it. Wasn't I already on your ignore list? So just ignore me.