Dart Pro 1 vs AFR 195 Eliminators
05-14-2009, 02:36 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Dec 2008
Location: 2011,2012 ECS CC 10.50 CHAMP Massapequa NY
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
This is a copy of a post from Beach Bum...
Something to think about..... if you add 15% to your chassis dyno numbers (by dividing .85) to get the flywheel, and then I create a 2500 rpm based upon the linear curve, and then for the 6500, assume that it just remains flat from 6000 to 6500 rpm.... your flywheel dyno numbers look like the below:
rpm............TQ..........HP
2500..........555.........264
3000..........607.........347
3500..........626.........417
4000..........625.........476
4500..........616.........528
5000..........603.........574
5500..........567.........594
6000..........533.........609
6500..........492.........609
As you can see, out of your 383, world products, roller cam, edelbrock intake, 2" exhaust, your motor would be listed as a 609 HP @ 6000-6500 - 626 ftlbs @ 3500-4000 rpm.....
As they do in the Engine Masters Challenge, they take the average tq and hp between 2500-6500 rpm, add them together, then divide by the cubic inches and then multiple by 1000 to get their final points score. In your case, your motor would have scored = 2797 points based upon your averaging right around 580 ftlbs & 490 HP.......
The winning 2008 motor was built by Jon Kaase performance and was a 403 that averaged 558 ftlbs & 484 hp for a winning score of = 2587 points. Keeping in mind, they are pushing these motor to the brink using every one of their tricks to get that kind of power. This 403 motor came short of your 383 by over 20 ftlbs and 6 hp..... a huge number when in competition.
The School of Automotive Machinists, led by Judson Massingill, had a 410 ci entry that squeezed out an average of 477 hp & 548 ftlbs.. 13 hp and over 30 ftlbs short of your 383......, their score was 2503 points and this was good enough for 3rd place in the competition.
My point to all of this, if that dyno was working correctly, your motor is worth tens of thousandths of dollars.... just enter in a few engine competitions and you'll be bringing home the bacon. And based upon the instant celebrity fame the motor would get, you could probably market copies of the motor to the masses..... I know, I would be interested. The HP is very doable for a stout 383 with a roller cam that spins up..... over 600 hp is certainly nothing new with them. But, its the torque, only time I have seen that type of torque out of a sbc is with forced induction or nitrous.... even a 434 would be hard pressed to squeeze that torque out of it and if it did squeeze out 625+ ftlbs of torque down at 3500 rpm, its going to be sacrificing power up top......
Just food for thought.....
So... no is my answer, not from a N/A motor with any torque
Something to think about..... if you add 15% to your chassis dyno numbers (by dividing .85) to get the flywheel, and then I create a 2500 rpm based upon the linear curve, and then for the 6500, assume that it just remains flat from 6000 to 6500 rpm.... your flywheel dyno numbers look like the below:
rpm............TQ..........HP
2500..........555.........264
3000..........607.........347
3500..........626.........417
4000..........625.........476
4500..........616.........528
5000..........603.........574
5500..........567.........594
6000..........533.........609
6500..........492.........609
As you can see, out of your 383, world products, roller cam, edelbrock intake, 2" exhaust, your motor would be listed as a 609 HP @ 6000-6500 - 626 ftlbs @ 3500-4000 rpm.....
As they do in the Engine Masters Challenge, they take the average tq and hp between 2500-6500 rpm, add them together, then divide by the cubic inches and then multiple by 1000 to get their final points score. In your case, your motor would have scored = 2797 points based upon your averaging right around 580 ftlbs & 490 HP.......
The winning 2008 motor was built by Jon Kaase performance and was a 403 that averaged 558 ftlbs & 484 hp for a winning score of = 2587 points. Keeping in mind, they are pushing these motor to the brink using every one of their tricks to get that kind of power. This 403 motor came short of your 383 by over 20 ftlbs and 6 hp..... a huge number when in competition.
The School of Automotive Machinists, led by Judson Massingill, had a 410 ci entry that squeezed out an average of 477 hp & 548 ftlbs.. 13 hp and over 30 ftlbs short of your 383......, their score was 2503 points and this was good enough for 3rd place in the competition.
My point to all of this, if that dyno was working correctly, your motor is worth tens of thousandths of dollars.... just enter in a few engine competitions and you'll be bringing home the bacon. And based upon the instant celebrity fame the motor would get, you could probably market copies of the motor to the masses..... I know, I would be interested. The HP is very doable for a stout 383 with a roller cam that spins up..... over 600 hp is certainly nothing new with them. But, its the torque, only time I have seen that type of torque out of a sbc is with forced induction or nitrous.... even a 434 would be hard pressed to squeeze that torque out of it and if it did squeeze out 625+ ftlbs of torque down at 3500 rpm, its going to be sacrificing power up top......
Just food for thought.....
So... no is my answer, not from a N/A motor with any torque
You naturally asperated guys need to wake up a get blown.
05-14-2009, 11:36 PM
#23
Drifting
I used the Dart 180's in my 383
RPM Torque Horsepower Fuel Lb/Hr BSFC Lb/Hr Air SCFM A/F Ratio
2800 430.0 229.3 98.5 0.490 253 11.76
2900 433.4 239.3 102.0 0.487 257 11.53
3000 434.9 248.4 103.1 0.474 262 11.65
3100 435.3 256.9 106.8 0.475 269 11.55
3200 437.7 266.7 112.5 0.482 278 11.31
3300 448.0 281.5 118.8 0.483 291 11.22
3400 445.9 288.7 113.2 0.449 302 12.22
3500 444.0 295.9 119.0 0.460 312 11.99
3600 441.8 302.8 123.8 0.468 321 11.88
3700 441.2 310.8 126.6 0.466 331 11.95
3800 443.0 320.5 129.8 0.464 341 12.03
3900 451.1 335.0 133.3 0.456 353 12.13
4000 461.2 351.2 134.1 0.437 367 12.54
4100 475.8 371.5 142.6 0.440 383 12.30
4200 477.1 381.6 143.0 0.429 397 12.71
4300 475.2 389.0 155.6 0.458 408 12.00
4400 478.8 401.1 154.8 0.442 423 12.52
4500 475.2 407.1 156.2 0.440 432 12.67
4600 484.9 424.7 157.9 0.427 449 13.03
4700 487.8 436.5 165.2 0.434 464 12.86
4800 491.6 449.3 169.1 0.432 477 12.91
4900 484.9 452.4 171.7 0.436 488 13.00
5000 483.1 459.9 179.6 0.449 499 12.73
5100 485.7 471.6 175.4 0.428 512 13.38
5200 481.9 477.1 182.6 0.440 521 13.07
5300 481.1 485.5 183.7 0.435 531 13.24
5400 468.2 481.4 188.4 0.451 541 13.14
5500 453.9 475.3 196.2 0.476 545 12.73
5600 455.4 485.6 189.1 0.449 556 13.46
5700 448.2 486.5 190.4 0.452 564 13.57
5800 447.3 494.0 196.7 0.460 572 13.31
5900 440.0 494.3 201.0 0.470 580 13.21
6000 428.7 489.8 205.0 0.485 584 13.04
6100 419.7 487.4 209.5 0.498 590 12.90
Pump gas
RPM Torque Horsepower Fuel Lb/Hr BSFC Lb/Hr Air SCFM A/F Ratio
2800 430.0 229.3 98.5 0.490 253 11.76
2900 433.4 239.3 102.0 0.487 257 11.53
3000 434.9 248.4 103.1 0.474 262 11.65
3100 435.3 256.9 106.8 0.475 269 11.55
3200 437.7 266.7 112.5 0.482 278 11.31
3300 448.0 281.5 118.8 0.483 291 11.22
3400 445.9 288.7 113.2 0.449 302 12.22
3500 444.0 295.9 119.0 0.460 312 11.99
3600 441.8 302.8 123.8 0.468 321 11.88
3700 441.2 310.8 126.6 0.466 331 11.95
3800 443.0 320.5 129.8 0.464 341 12.03
3900 451.1 335.0 133.3 0.456 353 12.13
4000 461.2 351.2 134.1 0.437 367 12.54
4100 475.8 371.5 142.6 0.440 383 12.30
4200 477.1 381.6 143.0 0.429 397 12.71
4300 475.2 389.0 155.6 0.458 408 12.00
4400 478.8 401.1 154.8 0.442 423 12.52
4500 475.2 407.1 156.2 0.440 432 12.67
4600 484.9 424.7 157.9 0.427 449 13.03
4700 487.8 436.5 165.2 0.434 464 12.86
4800 491.6 449.3 169.1 0.432 477 12.91
4900 484.9 452.4 171.7 0.436 488 13.00
5000 483.1 459.9 179.6 0.449 499 12.73
5100 485.7 471.6 175.4 0.428 512 13.38
5200 481.9 477.1 182.6 0.440 521 13.07
5300 481.1 485.5 183.7 0.435 531 13.24
5400 468.2 481.4 188.4 0.451 541 13.14
5500 453.9 475.3 196.2 0.476 545 12.73
5600 455.4 485.6 189.1 0.449 556 13.46
5700 448.2 486.5 190.4 0.452 564 13.57
5800 447.3 494.0 196.7 0.460 572 13.31
5900 440.0 494.3 201.0 0.470 580 13.21
6000 428.7 489.8 205.0 0.485 584 13.04
6100 419.7 487.4 209.5 0.498 590 12.90
Pump gas
05-14-2009, 11:53 PM
#24
Race Director
is that a chassy dyno or engine dyno?
I would believe a engine dyno.. but a lot more than just heads...
Im a little over 400 hp and tq at the wheels... but a lot more than just heads
I would believe a engine dyno.. but a lot more than just heads...
Im a little over 400 hp and tq at the wheels... but a lot more than just heads
05-15-2009, 08:45 PM
#28
Melting Slicks
05-15-2009, 09:32 PM
#29
Race Director
Never forget that dynos can be tweaked to give the operator any number he wants. This is especially true when the builder has his own dyno and you are buying a motor from him.
Even more care must be taken looking at dyno numbers from ebay or internet crate engine suppliers. They know a real drag racer will go to a shop near his home to get the work done so they know the buyer won't be able to figure out if the dyno numbers are real or not.
My friends shop does not have a happy dyno, the numbers it spit out are the real deal. They have been building race motors for 30 years and any drag racer knows how much HP it takes to get a car that weighs X amount down the track in Y amount of time. Also they look at top end speed. So they are not going to try an BS one these guys that they built a 500HP motor and the guy turns low 14's in perfectly setup race car.
Now to the point about making X amount of HP with what ever size motor you want. You can make 550HP or more with 350ci no problems. The problem arises when you try and drive this car on the street and it is basically impossible to do so because of many things including you have to run race gas.
Now we get to what is "streetable" and that is all I am concerned with. When I built my 427ci with AFR 227 heads and all the rest of the parts that are in it that are top notch I could have made much more HP than it makes but I wanted to be able to cruise around and enjoy it not hop off the line have to keep it at 3000RPM all time so I can say I have a 750HP small block.
This is the key, can anyone get in your car ( say your mother or grandmother ) and drive it like a normal car through a drive in restaurant line and have no troubles. If not then it is a race car and now you are talking about a motor with different parameters
Even more care must be taken looking at dyno numbers from ebay or internet crate engine suppliers. They know a real drag racer will go to a shop near his home to get the work done so they know the buyer won't be able to figure out if the dyno numbers are real or not.
My friends shop does not have a happy dyno, the numbers it spit out are the real deal. They have been building race motors for 30 years and any drag racer knows how much HP it takes to get a car that weighs X amount down the track in Y amount of time. Also they look at top end speed. So they are not going to try an BS one these guys that they built a 500HP motor and the guy turns low 14's in perfectly setup race car.
Now to the point about making X amount of HP with what ever size motor you want. You can make 550HP or more with 350ci no problems. The problem arises when you try and drive this car on the street and it is basically impossible to do so because of many things including you have to run race gas.
Now we get to what is "streetable" and that is all I am concerned with. When I built my 427ci with AFR 227 heads and all the rest of the parts that are in it that are top notch I could have made much more HP than it makes but I wanted to be able to cruise around and enjoy it not hop off the line have to keep it at 3000RPM all time so I can say I have a 750HP small block.
This is the key, can anyone get in your car ( say your mother or grandmother ) and drive it like a normal car through a drive in restaurant line and have no troubles. If not then it is a race car and now you are talking about a motor with different parameters
05-15-2009, 09:59 PM
#30
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: 406ci SB, AFR 180 Heads - 490 HP @5,600 RPM 529 lb-ft @ 4,100 RPM
Posts: 2,545
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
motorhead is right, my 406 is streetable to a point, it can get away from me if I don't respect the HP & torq. Can just imagine what kind of respect motorheads 427ci commands with the HP & torq it produce's. 
05-16-2009, 12:40 AM
#31
Race Director
Never forget that dynos can be tweaked to give the operator any number he wants. This is especially true when the builder has his own dyno and you are buying a motor from him.
Even more care must be taken looking at dyno numbers from ebay or internet crate engine suppliers. They know a real drag racer will go to a shop near his home to get the work done so they know the buyer won't be able to figure out if the dyno numbers are real or not.
My friends shop does not have a happy dyno, the numbers it spit out are the real deal. They have been building race motors for 30 years and any drag racer knows how much HP it takes to get a car that weighs X amount down the track in Y amount of time. Also they look at top end speed. So they are not going to try an BS one these guys that they built a 500HP motor and the guy turns low 14's in perfectly setup race car.
Now to the point about making X amount of HP with what ever size motor you want. You can make 550HP or more with 350ci no problems. The problem arises when you try and drive this car on the street and it is basically impossible to do so because of many things including you have to run race gas.
Now we get to what is "streetable" and that is all I am concerned with. When I built my 427ci with AFR 227 heads and all the rest of the parts that are in it that are top notch I could have made much more HP than it makes but I wanted to be able to cruise around and enjoy it not hop off the line have to keep it at 3000RPM all time so I can say I have a 750HP small block.
This is the key, can anyone get in your car ( say your mother or grandmother ) and drive it like a normal car through a drive in restaurant line and have no troubles. If not then it is a race car and now you are talking about a motor with different parameters
Even more care must be taken looking at dyno numbers from ebay or internet crate engine suppliers. They know a real drag racer will go to a shop near his home to get the work done so they know the buyer won't be able to figure out if the dyno numbers are real or not.
My friends shop does not have a happy dyno, the numbers it spit out are the real deal. They have been building race motors for 30 years and any drag racer knows how much HP it takes to get a car that weighs X amount down the track in Y amount of time. Also they look at top end speed. So they are not going to try an BS one these guys that they built a 500HP motor and the guy turns low 14's in perfectly setup race car.
Now to the point about making X amount of HP with what ever size motor you want. You can make 550HP or more with 350ci no problems. The problem arises when you try and drive this car on the street and it is basically impossible to do so because of many things including you have to run race gas.
Now we get to what is "streetable" and that is all I am concerned with. When I built my 427ci with AFR 227 heads and all the rest of the parts that are in it that are top notch I could have made much more HP than it makes but I wanted to be able to cruise around and enjoy it not hop off the line have to keep it at 3000RPM all time so I can say I have a 750HP small block.
This is the key, can anyone get in your car ( say your mother or grandmother ) and drive it like a normal car through a drive in restaurant line and have no troubles. If not then it is a race car and now you are talking about a motor with different parameters
The car needs to be a joy to drive not a chore. Well thought out and well put.
05-22-2009, 04:30 AM
#32
Drifting
I said the block was original, that and the valve covers are the only original parts left.
Had some machine work done including decking, full roller cam setup Comp XR282HR with pro magnum 1.6:1 rockers, the DART heads (P/N 11121112) and Kool Kan intake (I may still have a source for these) Mighty Demon 750 a few other parts Crank, rods, pistons, carefull balancing of rotating assembly and cc'ing of heads.
Then 15 or so pulls on the dyno for jetting, builder said the more fuel they put in the more power it'd make, had to go to the "Big Jet Box" but it has a nice 12-13:1 AF Ratio, exhaust temperature balanced well a couple of more pulls for timing
Very reliable, tough sounding idle, enough power to break everything, enough vacuum to run brakes and headlights.
If you have specific questions feel free to PM me.
Had some machine work done including decking, full roller cam setup Comp XR282HR with pro magnum 1.6:1 rockers, the DART heads (P/N 11121112) and Kool Kan intake (I may still have a source for these) Mighty Demon 750 a few other parts Crank, rods, pistons, carefull balancing of rotating assembly and cc'ing of heads.
Then 15 or so pulls on the dyno for jetting, builder said the more fuel they put in the more power it'd make, had to go to the "Big Jet Box" but it has a nice 12-13:1 AF Ratio, exhaust temperature balanced well a couple of more pulls for timing
Very reliable, tough sounding idle, enough power to break everything, enough vacuum to run brakes and headlights.
If you have specific questions feel free to PM me.
05-22-2009, 09:16 AM
#33
The Air Flow Research Heads Are The Pinnacle of Heads Everything else is trying to be like them. Though the dart,brodix,etc are good heads The AFR's are research and developed american made and the are worth every penny!! i have built around 6 or so small blocks with camel humps, dart, brodix, pro comp(australian made)(junk), etc.. If u are looking for the best look no further than the Afr.. just my opinion very very pleased with this product!!!
