1900 hp - 2100 hp connecting rods!
03-16-2009, 02:23 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
1900 hp - 2100 hp connecting rods!
As some of you might know, I snapped a Carrillo connecting rod in my 632 a couple of months ago after making 1448 rwhp. My time has been consumed with trying to find a connecting rod that might be able to hold up to this kind of power. I have looked at steel and aluminum but keep coming back to steel as my main choice.
After a very frustrating month of rod research, I decided to give Crower another call. I say another call because I originally talked to them a month or so ago and then have been unable to since. Finally I was able to get connected to Kerry Novak and after a conversation placed my order for their RBT Maxi-Light Series 6 billet rod.
According to Kerry, this rod is good for 1900 - 2100 horsepower. They are currently running them in a number of supercharged and procharged motors making over 2200 hp. They will take appx. 8 weeks to be made and the price will be a little over $1800.00.
Now, on to the billet vs. forged debate. I was unable to find any high-horsepower steel rods that were forged. Everything is billet now. Rick (540 Rat) suggested that forged rods are just too expensive to have the patterns, molds, foundry work, etc. done now. If you make your rod out of a billet plate of steel, any good machinist can suddenly become a rod manufacturer! Well maybe not but you see what I mean.
An interesting thing about Crowers billet program. According to Kerry they start with a billet plate that is formed in the shape of a rod. He said that this is what both they and Carrillo are doing. I didn't delve any deeper into this with him because it is a moot point. Billet is all that is really available.
This weekend I ran across the Crower 6.700" I-beam steel rods that were in my 542" motor that made appx. 715 rwhp n/a and 1192 rwhp with nitrous. I purchased these rods from Dick Maskin at Dart in 1990. I decided to compare the weight to the 6.635" Carrillo. I realize that this is not an exact comparison due to the .065" length difference but the Carrillo weighed 832 grams while the Crower weighed 858 grams. The Crower just looks and feels like a beefier piece. Ok, so that's my non-engineering based comparison.
I have the Dart Race Series cast iron block coming. Yep, no more aluminum block for me. I ordered it with a 55 mm cam and .904" lifters. I am having the lifter bores bronze bushed. I also have to get a Jesel +.600 belt drive. Yah, that one really burns me up. My seriously wounded Merlin aluminum block has a +.400 cam location. My Keith Black aluminum block has a std.cam location. So this means that I now have a std. Jesel belt drive and a +.400 Jesel belt drive sitting around.
I have also been in contact with Randy @ JE pistons about getting another set of his reverse radius dome pistons. These pistons are just killer. Of course this also means that I will have to send another set of piston pins off to get casidium coated.
As you can see, things are starting to take shape. Hopefully there will be more good things to come.
Steve
After a very frustrating month of rod research, I decided to give Crower another call. I say another call because I originally talked to them a month or so ago and then have been unable to since. Finally I was able to get connected to Kerry Novak and after a conversation placed my order for their RBT Maxi-Light Series 6 billet rod.
According to Kerry, this rod is good for 1900 - 2100 horsepower. They are currently running them in a number of supercharged and procharged motors making over 2200 hp. They will take appx. 8 weeks to be made and the price will be a little over $1800.00.
Now, on to the billet vs. forged debate. I was unable to find any high-horsepower steel rods that were forged. Everything is billet now. Rick (540 Rat) suggested that forged rods are just too expensive to have the patterns, molds, foundry work, etc. done now. If you make your rod out of a billet plate of steel, any good machinist can suddenly become a rod manufacturer! Well maybe not but you see what I mean.
An interesting thing about Crowers billet program. According to Kerry they start with a billet plate that is formed in the shape of a rod. He said that this is what both they and Carrillo are doing. I didn't delve any deeper into this with him because it is a moot point. Billet is all that is really available.
This weekend I ran across the Crower 6.700" I-beam steel rods that were in my 542" motor that made appx. 715 rwhp n/a and 1192 rwhp with nitrous. I purchased these rods from Dick Maskin at Dart in 1990. I decided to compare the weight to the 6.635" Carrillo. I realize that this is not an exact comparison due to the .065" length difference but the Carrillo weighed 832 grams while the Crower weighed 858 grams. The Crower just looks and feels like a beefier piece. Ok, so that's my non-engineering based comparison.
I have the Dart Race Series cast iron block coming. Yep, no more aluminum block for me. I ordered it with a 55 mm cam and .904" lifters. I am having the lifter bores bronze bushed. I also have to get a Jesel +.600 belt drive. Yah, that one really burns me up. My seriously wounded Merlin aluminum block has a +.400 cam location. My Keith Black aluminum block has a std.cam location. So this means that I now have a std. Jesel belt drive and a +.400 Jesel belt drive sitting around.
I have also been in contact with Randy @ JE pistons about getting another set of his reverse radius dome pistons. These pistons are just killer. Of course this also means that I will have to send another set of piston pins off to get casidium coated.
As you can see, things are starting to take shape. Hopefully there will be more good things to come.
Steve
03-16-2009, 02:41 PM
#3
Team Owner
I like aluminum because of repairabilty (up to a point) I take that yours was not repairable?
I'm suprized that you are sticking to a little 632 ci
I'm suprized that you are sticking to a little 632 ci
03-16-2009, 03:55 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
I think the 632 is expensive enough lol. When you go above that it really gets expensive and a pain in the can. This thing was a pain in the can but there are better parts now.
http://www.vintageair.com/video_choices.htm
http://www.vintageair.com/video_choices.htm
03-16-2009, 04:08 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
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Steve,
Glad to see things are taking shape again. So are you going to tame it down a little for the street this time or still chase the dyno ghost?
On a side note, I thought about something. Now I don't know enough about forging but I wonder why they can't cut the piece of steel down to a block just before cutting and forge that? Then billet cut the forged chunk. Maybe the shape has some dictation in the grain alignment for the forging I assume???
But back to the original discussion. Were you ever able to come to a good conclusion about what the real cause was? There were many here that want to blame the early full nitrous hit. I'm concerned that even with these new Big Boy rods that if you hit them with your big shot way down low that it could happen again.
Good luck though and I hope it comes back together soon.
Glad to see things are taking shape again. So are you going to tame it down a little for the street this time or still chase the dyno ghost?
On a side note, I thought about something. Now I don't know enough about forging but I wonder why they can't cut the piece of steel down to a block just before cutting and forge that? Then billet cut the forged chunk. Maybe the shape has some dictation in the grain alignment for the forging I assume???
But back to the original discussion. Were you ever able to come to a good conclusion about what the real cause was? There were many here that want to blame the early full nitrous hit. I'm concerned that even with these new Big Boy rods that if you hit them with your big shot way down low that it could happen again.
Good luck though and I hope it comes back together soon.
03-16-2009, 04:52 PM
#6
Team Owner
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Hi Steve,
I'm way too stock to understand everything you're talking about but I sure enjoy following along. I vividly remember the pictures of your last motor.
Good Luck and I look forward to your up-dates.
Regards,
Alan
I'm way too stock to understand everything you're talking about but I sure enjoy following along. I vividly remember the pictures of your last motor.
Good Luck and I look forward to your up-dates.
Regards,
Alan
03-16-2009, 04:57 PM
#7
Drifting
Thread Starter
That makes two of us!
It is repairable but would be around $2000.00. I have run across too many issues with aluminum blocks and the "exoticness" has worn off.
Cool video! Wow - that happened in 1995!
I am definitely going to tame it down a little - no make that a lot. Great question on the forging deal. Someone like Rick should be able to answer that. As far as the real cause, well I am no closer to that now then I was when it happened. As I have said before, everyone has an opinion. I hope that I have learned a few things - primarily not hitting the nitrous at 3500 rpm!
Steve
Originally Posted by gkull
I like aluminum because of repairabilty (up to a point) I take that yours was not repairable?
I'm suprized that you are sticking to a little 632 ci
I'm suprized that you are sticking to a little 632 ci
Originally Posted by SHAKERATTLEROLL
I think the 632 is expensive enough lol. When you go above that it really gets expensive and a pain in the can. This thing was a pain in the can but there are better parts now.
Originally Posted by tshort
Steve,
Glad to see things are taking shape again. So are you going to tame it down a little for the street this time or still chase the dyno ghost?
On a side note, I thought about something. Now I don't know enough about forging but I wonder why they can't cut the piece of steel down to a block just before cutting and forge that? Then billet cut the forged chunk. Maybe the shape has some dictation in the grain alignment for the forging I assume???
But back to the original discussion. Were you ever able to come to a good conclusion about what the real cause was? There were many here that want to blame the early full nitrous hit. I'm concerned that even with these new Big Boy rods that if you hit them with your big shot way down low that it could happen again.
Good luck though and I hope it comes back together soon.
Glad to see things are taking shape again. So are you going to tame it down a little for the street this time or still chase the dyno ghost?
On a side note, I thought about something. Now I don't know enough about forging but I wonder why they can't cut the piece of steel down to a block just before cutting and forge that? Then billet cut the forged chunk. Maybe the shape has some dictation in the grain alignment for the forging I assume???
But back to the original discussion. Were you ever able to come to a good conclusion about what the real cause was? There were many here that want to blame the early full nitrous hit. I'm concerned that even with these new Big Boy rods that if you hit them with your big shot way down low that it could happen again.
Good luck though and I hope it comes back together soon.
Steve
03-16-2009, 04:58 PM
#8
Drifting
Thread Starter
Steve
03-16-2009, 07:04 PM
#9
Pro
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Steve, glad to hear you found a set of rods you are happy with. But I guess the million dollar question is, how much do those RBT Maxi-Light Series 6 billet rods weigh? Since weight equals strength to a large degree, they've got to be rather beefy, to stand up to over 2,000 hp indefinitely.
Last edited by 540 RAT; 03-16-2009 at 07:07 PM.
03-16-2009, 09:00 PM
#13
03-16-2009, 09:13 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
Yep back in 1995 it was ground breaking stuff. They did not even have an intake for it as of the time the engine was built. Nor a few other parts such as push rods and everything had to be fit custom. Even back in 1995 the parts alone were a bit over $2O,OOO.oo. And that is just parts not the many man hours it took to build and test.
And yes he still drives it around town lol.
And yes he still drives it around town lol.
03-16-2009, 10:02 PM
#15
Drifting
Thread Starter
Steve, glad to hear you found a set of rods you are happy with. But I guess the million dollar question is, how much do those RBT Maxi-Light Series 6 billet rods weigh? Since weight equals strength to a large degree, they've got to be rather beefy, to stand up to over 2,000 hp indefinitely.
Weight is going to be an interesting question. Crower is supposed to be letting me know about the weight. I am with you. Hey, out of curiosity, based on your knowledge would an I-beam be stronger than an H-beam if they both weighed the exact same?
Originally Posted by l88rocket
When I had my 706 pg nitrous motor, I had Oliver rods and never had a rod failure.
Originally Posted by PuddleJumper
wow on the HP 
to bad you had to have something break
to bad you had to have something break
Originally Posted by GDaina
Steve,
What are your plans for the car? Will this be weekend warrior at a strip or evening boulevard cruiser?
What are your plans for the car? Will this be weekend warrior at a strip or evening boulevard cruiser?
Originally Posted by 73jst4fun
Great post to follow on your results, too bad it's a big hit on the $$$$ Good luck Steve
Originally Posted by SHAKERATTLEROLL
Yep back in 1995 it was ground breaking stuff. They did not even have an intake for it as of the time the engine was built. Nor a few other parts such as push rods and everything had to be fit custom. Even back in 1995 the parts alone were a bit over $2O,OOO.oo. And that is just parts not the many man hours it took to build and test.
And yes he still drives it around town lol.
And yes he still drives it around town lol.
Steve
03-17-2009, 12:16 AM
#16
Melting Slicks
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Like anything else some like them some some don't. Good luck with your engine. The 632 is one of the best combo's to build.
03-17-2009, 12:09 PM
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Who said anything about indefinitely! Weight is going to be an interesting question. Crower is supposed to be letting me know about the weight. I am with you. Hey, out of curiosity, based on your knowledge would an I-beam be stronger than an H-beam if they both weighed the exact same?
Steve
Weight is going to be an interesting question. Crower is supposed to be letting me know about the weight. I am with you. Hey, out of curiosity, based on your knowledge would an I-beam be stronger than an H-beam if they both weighed the exact same?Steve
As to whether I-Beam or H-Beam rods are stronger, with or without being the same weight, consider:
The 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 will be the most powerful and fastest production car ever produced by General Motors, with performance enabled by a new, supercharged 6.2L LS9 small-block V-8 engine. GM Power train is targeting 100 horsepower per liter for the LS9, or 620 horsepower, and approximately 595 lb.-ft. of torque.
When GM engineers designed this engine from the ground up, they could have used any rod style they deemed the best. Check out the connecting rod they "designed" below:
http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_07.../photo_08.html
As you can see, I-Beams are what REAL engineers use, when they "design" rods. No matter what some aftermarket non-engineers will tell you. Look at the sketches below to get a feel for why actual engineers use I-Beam structural components, not only in car engines, but also in large buildings, bridges, aircraft, spacecraft, etc,etc.
03-17-2009, 01:03 PM
#19
Drifting
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by 540 RAT
As to whether I-Beam or H-Beam rods are stronger, with or without being the same weight, consider:
The 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 will be the most powerful and fastest production car ever produced by General Motors, with performance enabled by a new, supercharged 6.2L LS9 small-block V-8 engine. GM Power train is targeting 100 horsepower per liter for the LS9, or 620 horsepower, and approximately 595 lb.-ft. of torque.
When GM engineers designed this engine from the ground up, they could have used any rod style they deemed the best. Check out the connecting rod they "designed" below:
http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_07.../photo_08.html
As you can see, I-Beams are what REAL engineers use, when they "design" rods. No matter what some aftermarket non-engineers will tell you. Look at the sketches below to get a feel for why actual engineers use I-Beam structural components, not only in car engines, but also in large buildings, bridges, aircraft, spacecraft, etc,etc.
The 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 will be the most powerful and fastest production car ever produced by General Motors, with performance enabled by a new, supercharged 6.2L LS9 small-block V-8 engine. GM Power train is targeting 100 horsepower per liter for the LS9, or 620 horsepower, and approximately 595 lb.-ft. of torque.
When GM engineers designed this engine from the ground up, they could have used any rod style they deemed the best. Check out the connecting rod they "designed" below:
http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_07.../photo_08.html
As you can see, I-Beams are what REAL engineers use, when they "design" rods. No matter what some aftermarket non-engineers will tell you. Look at the sketches below to get a feel for why actual engineers use I-Beam structural components, not only in car engines, but also in large buildings, bridges, aircraft, spacecraft, etc,etc.
Originally Posted by 427V8
I think he's going for gas mileage...
By the way, does anyone have any feedback on using roller cam bearings on the street? According to Comp Cams it is no problem but I am a little concerned because I was told they rely only on crankshaft splash for their lubrication needs.
Steve
03-17-2009, 01:31 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
Roller cam bearings good question. And you are correct they do not need much in the way of lubrication just enough to get them wet. But to be honest I have never seen the need to go with Roller Cam Bearings or the expense with there use. So to this end I will ask a question. Have you ever worn out cam bearings?
Some people just wish to have the neatest thing out there or the new whiz bang stuff. But again I have not found a good reason to go with Roller Cam Bearings over standard bearings for this use.
Years ago when I messed with high end performace VW Type 1 engines the neatest whiz bang thing out was the Roller Crank or that is a crank with roller bearings. They were neat and enabled sustained high rpm without worry of low oil pressure to the crank bearings but since the journals need to be press fit to enable such bearings to be used any good jolt to the crank could cause the crank to go out of alignment. So that is why there use has gone to the way side. Just like I do not see the use of gas porting pistons to the ring lands anylonger. But I could be wrong as it might have come back lol.
I still have a VW Type 1 in a Buggy that is a little 2275CC which is over 1/2in stroke and 1/2 in Bore over stock with duel 48 MM Webers with 40MM Venturi in them and the little cam in it is Valve Lift: 0.620 inches, Duration: 328 degrees lol. This is how I got my start with strokers lol. Fit all that into a VW case and it will teach you a bunch lol.
Some people just wish to have the neatest thing out there or the new whiz bang stuff. But again I have not found a good reason to go with Roller Cam Bearings over standard bearings for this use.
Years ago when I messed with high end performace VW Type 1 engines the neatest whiz bang thing out was the Roller Crank or that is a crank with roller bearings. They were neat and enabled sustained high rpm without worry of low oil pressure to the crank bearings but since the journals need to be press fit to enable such bearings to be used any good jolt to the crank could cause the crank to go out of alignment. So that is why there use has gone to the way side. Just like I do not see the use of gas porting pistons to the ring lands anylonger. But I could be wrong as it might have come back lol.
I still have a VW Type 1 in a Buggy that is a little 2275CC which is over 1/2in stroke and 1/2 in Bore over stock with duel 48 MM Webers with 40MM Venturi in them and the little cam in it is Valve Lift: 0.620 inches, Duration: 328 degrees lol. This is how I got my start with strokers lol. Fit all that into a VW case and it will teach you a bunch lol.
Last edited by SHAKERATTLEROLL; 03-17-2009 at 01:43 PM.