0Tony Mamo @ AFR

This thread posted in the C5 and C6 tech section may also apply to you. I am copying and pasting my original post as well as some of the pertinent responses by AFR here....feel free to look thru the actual threads in both sections if you like.

The C5 thread is here http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1546736

The C6 thread is here http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1546643

Here is what I originally posted copied and pasted....
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Guys,

It has come to our attention that some time ago we received a batch of valves from our supplier (8 mm LS1) that the tips were not hardened to the proper Rockwell scale. Over the course of time this will lead to the tip eroding ultimately creating lash (play) between the worn tips and the rocker arms. As this situation progress’s further, the audible ticking noise will get louder and the wear will accelerate faster from the pounding of the rocker arm on the valve tip. If left completely unchecked, it could cause a valve to drop (worst case scenario) but the clacking noise would be very audible if the damage had progressed that far and it’s extremely unlikely anyone would drive it that long without noticing. Take note that depending on how loud your exhaust is and how far the problem may have progressed, you may or may not hear it from the driver’s seat. I would encourage anyone who’s reading this and has purchased our heads to listen to the engine running with the hood open. Note also that some cams with more aggressive lobes (XER, LSK, etc.) will always have more valve train noise than a stock cam….what you are listening for is abnormally loud clacking and a noise that seems more isolated to possibly only one or a few bad valves.

The good news is we have shipped over 1000 sets of LS1’s in the last year or two and this problem currently represents approximately 1% of our sold and delivered units, however, till we get a better handle from our supplier on how many valves they may have sent us that way (which we are working on), we felt it best to be upfront with you guys in the event we can help prevent any serious engine damage by alerting you to a potential problem ahead of time. Understand that this letter isn’t meant to induce panic and hopefully you never experience any issues (needless to say it would have been far easier to bury our head in the sand in the hopes this is very isolated and goes away), but management felt it would be best handled by being pro-active and sharing the information with all of you who stepped up and bought our product (regardless of whether you may or may not have some issues now or down the road that need to be corrected). We are also aware that one of our competitors recently reported something similar regarding tip wear, but in our situation its not related to geometry and the few people that have had an issue had both stock and aftermarket roller rockers. These are simply coincidental and un-related occurrences.

In the event you are experiencing any issues please contact AFR directly…. note that in one case the damage took as long as 8000 miles to be pronounced enough for our customer to look into the abnormal tapping noises emitting from the valve train. A few happened much faster than that which IMO is more likely. Currently, we are handling each situation on a case by case basis and will continue to speak with our manufacturer (who also builds valves for OEM applications) to try and get a better idea of how much help they will be willing to provide.

As I learn more I will be passing it along to you….in the meantime I advise you give the valve train a quick listen and if you’ve got the time, tools, and ability, removing both valve covers to take a closer look at your valve stem tips certainly wouldn’t be a bad idea. A bad one will have an arc ground in it from the rocker wiping across it.

We hope this info helps some of you to avoid any potential problems….

Feel free to contact myself or anyone in the Sales/Technical Dept. by dialing (661)257-8124
Please leave a message in the event you can’t reach a live person and someone will get back to you shortly

Sincerely,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / R&D Mgr.
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Here is the latest response from our company on how we are prepared to handle any potential problems....now or anytime in the future. More specifics will follow in the next few days.
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Ok Guys....

Quick update as Im sure there are more than quite a few of you following this situation.

The big question is undoubtedly "will AFR be compensating me for my labor to R&R the cylinder heads"?? The answer is yes, but I dont have an exact dollar amount to share with you as of yet. We are going to try and arrive at what we believe is a fair price based on R&R time as well as an hourly rate.

Replacement parts will also be covered and must be provided by AFR (head gaskets, rocker arms, etc., etc.) and all of the heads must be repaired here at the factory as well. We want to insure everything goes back together properly and while it would be much less costly for us to ship a box of valves, we prefer to dis-assemble and re-assemble your heads here to be sure everything is done correctly.

We will also cover ground freight both ways (no airfreight) but you must use our UPS account number and be provided an RMA # that you will clearly mark on the return box. An RMA number can be obtained by contacting any one of our Sales Reps (I don't handle any of the RMA's).

Hopefully by the end of the week I will be able to provide you guys with more specifics concerning exact labor reimbursement $$$.

Once again, this is still more of a warning, but we wanted all of you to feel comfortable in the event you happen to have an issue(s) relating to this either now or anytime in the future.

Regards,
Tony M.

Note that if you have the time you might consider taking a look at the other threads linked at the top for other peoples questions and some additional comments/posting by myself on AFR's behalf....I just felt hitting the two more pertinent posts I made here was a good way to start.

More information coming soon....

Thanks,
Tony Mamo

GUYS...PLEASE SCROLL TO POST#15 FOR AFR's RESOLUTION OF THIS ISSUE MORE CLEARLY SPELLED OUT.....THANKS, TONY

JPhil

ttt

ratflinger

Tony,

1. Thanks for stepping up. Quality problems don't define a company, the manner in which the company handles it's quality issues defines it.

2. You should step over to the dark side (C3 forum) more often as you have a lot of supporters here.

3. I'm assuming this is affecting the the new Eliminator series & that's why you posted here also. It also explains why my heads are delayed a month. I'd much rather wait a month for the 'right' product, than deal with issues later.

Thanks to AFR for stepping up.

MotorHead

Most of the time I see a company hiding and hoping the problem will go away and then blaming the customer.

That sure is a standup thing for a big company to do, I applaud you and AFR. I see a set of AFR heads on my new motor already

Sky65

I have been considering AFR heads. This cinches the deal. As previously stated. It is how you handle the situation when things go wrong that gives you credibility. As a soon to be AFR owner, thanks for stepping up.

Vette80regon

LittleJake

Same here

jetvette

Edzred72

Purchased eliminator 210's two months ago...will keep a VERY close eye on those valve tips once she's fired.
Thanks for the heads up AFR...
Eddie

Solid LT1

Maybe its time to stop buying Foreign (Brazil, Argentina?) valves and give Manley some business. Who knows, maybe if we employ enough people in the USA, they will buy more of your products.

alanbl

Here's a company that is becoming all too rare these days with how they deal with a problem and you're giving them grief!

Not only is AFR notifying everyone of a "potential" problem but rather than just offering a replacement part, they're going to pony up cash for the labor cost to replace. In my book, it doesn't get much better than that.

I'm just in the planning stages for turning my 350 into a 383 stroker and AFR just shot up to the top of the list for heads.

0Tony Mamo @ AFR

Guys...

Thanks for all the support, and while I may not spend a whole lot of time here (C3 section), I am available to any one of you through email, PM's, or better yet the good ole telephone which I prefer (a conversation will always be more helpful and informative).

That said, our current supplier has always provided us with quality components (how many AFR valve failures have you seen?) but anyone can make a mistake or have issues arise in the course of doing business. We are working with them on a resolution but we understand that whats the most important to all of you is how we are handling the situation with our customers.

Eddie, regarding the 210's you mentioned, we haven't shipped a single pair of those yet (putting the last finishing touches on that product as we speak) so you have nothing to watch for or worry about. All of our valves in house are now being checked for proper heat treat (we spent thousands on the right equipment) and while most manufacturers rely on the QC of their vendor's, considering the situation we are being extra cautious. If any of you have received our new Eliminator 180 or 195 heads and haven't installed them yet I would encourage you to contact AFR so we could arrange to have them sent back and checked just to be on the safe side (if they werent installed on the engine it seems a good opportunity to have us check things out).

Again, on behalf of all of us at AFR, thanks for all the support thru what is obviously a situation we have never encountered before and are doing our best to get things handled to everyone's satisfaction.

Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or concerns

(661)257-8124 Ext. 109

Regards,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / R&D Mgr.

James.70

The money spent to take care of your customers will earn your company respect and clients. I always wonder why some companys try to hide stuff instead of adressing it and taking care of it. What you guys are doing is the right thing, dont see it alot.
Good luck to all the guys with AFR heads, looks like you are dealing with a stand up company.

kaiserbud

I just bought Brodix, and am happy with that. I have heard your heads are good, but I really like your business ethics !

0Tony Mamo @ AFR

OK Guys…

After much debate, discussion, and consideration of this sensitive issue, we have decided to handle this situation as follows….

First and foremost is to alert AFR directly notifying us of the problem. What has also been helpful is for us to exchange a few digital pics (if possible) so we can confirm you have a problem before you remove the heads or invest any additional time. Once confirmed, we will provide you with an RMA number and our UPS account number to help facilitate the return of our merchandise. Once again….we are only covering ground freight….do not use any other type of service. Also, be sure to insure the heads for a dollar value that is representative of your original purchase price just in case they get damaged in transit.

Compensation regarding labor to R&R a pair of heads will be $600….that figure was arrived at after speaking with numerous shops (most of them dealers) that were polled regarding this issue and asked what they would charge to swap heads. Some of those dealers were very candid with us stating they would usually charge more (at straight up retail pricing) but were willing to help us considering the circumstances. The reality here is that AFR dealers are independently owned and operated, some of them will be willing to do it for this price (or even a few dollars less) while others may want a few dollars more. This isn’t a guarantee that every AFR dealer will charge you $600….just what we felt represented a fair figure based on the quotes and conversations we had. Your local shop may want $400 or $800 to do the job….we are willing to cover $600 of that tab and recommend that you speak with an AFR dealer who may be better equipped to handle it and might be more willing to save you some money. Keep in mind this figure is only the labor compensation and does not cover bolts, coolant, and gaskets which we will be the next topic discussed.

AFR will also provide head gaskets (Cometic, FelPro, or stock GM), new OEM bolts (assuming that’s what you are replacing) and an additional $20 to cover lost oil / antifreeze from the swap. The fluids reimbursement will be added to the $600 check, the head gaskets and fasteners sent in a separate box when we ship your cylinder heads. Note that if you are already using premium hardware (ARP, etc.) we will only be sending you the replacement head gaskets of your choice. In the event we are replacing your OEM bolts, please inform the AFR Sales Rep of that when you arrange the RMA number and return of your heads.

Also, it is important to note that we are NOT advocating the removal of heads from a running engine “just to be sure”. AFR will provide ZERO compensation in that situation (unless you have a confirmed problem). However, if you own a set of our heads that haven’t been installed yet you must send them back to us so we have the opportunity to evaluate them before they are installed. Note that AFR will not cover any labor costs, gaskets, or hardware on heads that were installed after Tuesday, November 21st. We will only make good on the product itself. This is to insure that people do not install heads in the future knowing they may have a problem but we would cover them anyway so why send them back to check….that wouldn’t be fair to us. If you have any AFR product with 8mm valve stems that are not installed on an engine, you must contact us and allow us the time we need to verify the valves installed in your cylinder heads. Once again, contact us directly for an RMA number to expedite the return of your cylinder heads. DO NOT SEND BACK ANY MERCHANDISE WITHOUT AN RMA #.....it will be refused. This is very important guys….do not omit this step or you will most certainly have more “down time” than necessary.

Last but not least and also of great importance (kind of the flip side of the paragraph above), if you ignore what will ultimately become an extremely noisy valve train (in the event you have some of the valves in question) and allow it to progress to the point a valve drops (worst case scenario), AFR will not pay for or reimburse you any differently than those who took care of this situation in a more timely manner. We will not cover any losses related to your shortblock etc. because it would have been negligence on your behalf to have allowed it to get that bad, especially with most of you now cognizant of a potential issue. In that situation (a problem left unchecked) there would be in excess of an eighth of an inch of play between the rocker and valve tip and the clacking/tapping noise from this type of slop would be clearly audible even to someone not “mechanically inclined”.

Guys…thankfully this kind of situation is a first for our organization (and hopefully a last!) and we are doing the best we can to handle it in a fair and proper manner, while at the same time trying to keep an eye on our exposure as well. Without fully knowing how many valves are soft in the field this was a challenging situation to confront and clearly address. We have tried to document this situation as well as our response and “solution” to the best of our abilities, but considering this situation has never been addressed before you might call it a work in progress so stay tuned in the event there is an update or two.

Hopefully few of you will have to deal with it but in the event you do feel free to contact myself or anyone in the AFR organization for further instructions….note that I spend a fair amount of time in R&D and can’t provide you with RMA information (in general I will be a little more difficult to get on the telephone) but assuming you attempt to contact me, I will certainly return your email, PM, or voice message as soon as time permits.

Thanks from all of us at AFR,

Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / R&D Mgr.
(661)257-8124

PS....Here are a couple of pics I have been promising you

This one shows some of the earlier signs of the problem....note the pitting on top of the tip. Your valvetrain will not make any noise at this stage of the game.



Unfortunately this picture is blurry (I will try and replace it with a clearer shot at a later date) but it will show the soft tip problem more advanced (over 5000 miles pitured here). Note the height of the actual tip on the right has eroded and at this stage you will actually have play (lash) between the valve tip and the rocker arm producing a very audible clacking/tapping noise from the rocker smacking down on the tip. If ignored, the tip will erode even more over time (and could cause a valve to drop in a worst case scenario) but it will take quite a bit of time to get that bad and the clacking noise will become even more audible if its allowed to progress that far.

MotorHead

Good reason to install lash caps. I always run lash caps, would these solve the problem in this situation or just delay the inevitable ?

0Tony Mamo @ AFR

I would solve the problem....just not sure if there are 8mm lash caps available yet. The 5/16 will not fit (just a couple of thou too tight). But a lash cap would eliminate the problem completely to answer your question.

Thanks,
Tony

Todbo

I'm using a different brand on my current set up , but I have several motors to build , I like what I'm hearing from your company

blueray72

I know where I'm goin if I decide to update my sb heads.

King Lear

I know this winter once my rebuild warranty is up, my procomp ching-chang heads are going to be replaced with either these or edelbrock e-tec's. Does anyone have these AFR heads on a Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap intake? just wondered how the ports line up. If they line up good then I will probably just get the AFR's after reading this.