Steve Zaino

I am replacing my starter with a high torque mini starter that I bought from JEGS. The old solenoid had three terminals and the new one only has two terminals.

There seems to be an extra wire left over that I am not sure where to put it.

The old starter had 4 wires attached (5 including the ground to the frame.)

1. Positive from the battery - Attached to large terminal

2. Red wire - attached to "R" terminal

3. black wire - attached to the "S" terminal

4. black wire- Attached to the large terminal with #1 above.

The new starter has only two terminals and basically I think know where everything goes.

Wire #1 and wire #4 were together on the old starter so I put them together
on the appropriate "battery" terminal.

Wire #3 which was on the old "S" (starter) is attached to the new "starter" terminal.

Except were does the red wire #2 above go ??

MikeC

Steve,
Can't help with your problem other than to tell you I have only two wires going to my starter.

Hopefully someone else can help you.

LAvetteman

Where does red wire #2 go to in regards to the car? My guess to the fuse box, if so you connect it where the bat cable connects.Unless black wire S is a ground for the solinoid, then R would be the positive for the solinoid. Find out where R goes to.


[Modified by 71,454,4spd, 11:54 AM 9/18/2001]


[Modified by 71,454,4spd, 11:55 AM 9/18/2001]

Ki m Le

#2 Red should connect to the ignition coil + side. "R" is Resistor supposely; This wire feeds power to the Ign. coil when the Ign. key in Start position.

LAvetteman

Why would you feed power to coil in the start position, you should have power to the coil from the ign (ignition) and beyond? And why would that power come from the starter and not the ignition switch?

Ki m Le

71,454,4spd,
When the Ign. switch is in start position, there is no power any where but the starter "S" terminal. The "S" terminal then energizes the starter solenoid to close the contact at the "B" and "R" terminals.
The "B" terminal provides power to the starter motor and
The "R" terminal temporary provides power to Ign. coil while the power lost at start position.

As soon as the Ign. key is released to "Run" position, the starter solenoid disengage to cut off power to the starter motor and ign. coil.

The Ign. coil is now powered through the ign. switch with the key in "Run" position.

Why do they switch power back and forth at the coil? There're 2 reasons I can think of.

1. Turns every thing off to give the starter and Ign. coil full power for quick start.
2. The power feeds through Ign. switch usually at lower voltage and current to extend the life of the coil. (This is done with the resistive wire or resistor in series).

LAvetteman

Ah ha, thanks Ki m Le, I did not know that. So Steve, you get it going yet?

noxqsz

Steve;

Unless you've installed a new wiring harness in your car and you are completely confident that it is correctly installed, be very cautious about assuming that your old starter was wired correctly when you took it out. Here's why I say this. When I replaced my engine, I discovered that the main engine harness ground had been hooked to the battery cable terminal on the starter (the #1 position described in your post.) The starter worked fine, and the only symptom the car had was that the battery would go dead if the car sat for a week or two. Plus, of course, some of the accessories not working, such as the windshield wipers and the back window defogger and the hood switch for the alarm. I also know from personal experience that wires get spliced and the gauge of wires and colors changed. The splice is hidden in the harness and things get very confusing when you try to sort out problems. If you don't already have them, I strongly encourage you to invest in a wiring diagram specific to your car and an assembly instruction manual. That's the only way I know of to be sure things are hooked up correctly.

Steve Zaino

Thanks for the input. I haven't done anything to the car all week. I just started looking at my Haynes manual today.

Haynes only has a schematic for a 1971 ( my car is a 1969), however, if you assume it is the same it appears that this extra red wire I have with no where to go does in fact attach to the + terminal at the coil as Ki m Le said it the previous post.

I still do not know where to put this wire on the solenoid.

Here is where I left off the other night ....

At first I attached the old red "R" wire to to the terminal on the solenoid where the +battery cable attaches. When I did this and got into the car to test it out, some dash lights were already on and I hadn't even put the key in the ignition! When I did try to start the car nothing happened and the dash lights went out!!!

I then removed this red wire and left it unattached and tried to start the car. I got funny results, at first nothing then some clicking then the starter was running but not engaging the flywheel, then nothing again. This is when I stopped until today.

The only other thing, I validated was that the old starter was in fact dead. I wired this to my battery and nothing happens.

paso

steve The "R" terminal is used usually for non HEI cars. and goes to the ignition coil. Cars with HEI use only Two of the three terminals the "S" terminal comes from the ignition switch and is usually a heavier gauge wire. The big terminal ( BATTERY) also has a wires that could be powering accessories. I don't know if your car has been upgraded to HEI which you may have a extra wire that is confusing the situation. hope this helps.

Smokehouse69

Steve,
You can use a starter/solenoid without the "R" terminal on a points ignitioned car, but you have to rig up another relay to provide a full "12Volts" to the coil at startup time. Since power is only provided to the "S" terminal while the key is in the start postion it is an ideal place to get power to "latch up" the solenoid. I rigged up my relay on the firewall on the driverside near the powerbrake booster. I ran a wire from the "S" terminal on the starter up to the pull-down coil on the relay. I then ran an 18 gauge wire from the 12 volt terminal on the back of the alternator to the in terminal on the relay, on the out terminal I ran another 18 gauge wire to the "+" terminal on the coil.
Now when the key is turned to the "Start-Position" 12volts pulls down the relay, which routes a full 12volts to the coil.
I got the relay from a parts store for about $8.00, the whole job took about 30 minutes from start to finish. This included putting on the mini-starter.

Steve Zaino

Finally, Someone who has been through this.

I originally had a points based system, however, I recently replaced my points and condensor with the Pertronix Ignitor II. I just want to make what you are suggesting won't damagae anything.

Is it worth doing this or should I just get a replacement starter to match what I took out of my car?

paso

Steve smokerhouse 69 refreshed my memory. In the tech tips section is How to wire a remote switch. I think that will help you all the way
That works very well for vettes that get hot no starts. It works great for porsche VW Etc.. I think it's one of those Better Idea's from Ford. :smash:

Smokehouse69

The "upgrade" I described won't damage anything, since it duplicates what was originally there from the factory. The "R" terminal on the solenoid is connected to a momentary contact switch (actually a little copper spring) that is closed and providing a full 12v to the coil when the starter is actually cranking. The relay setup I described just duplicates this functionality and as soon as the key is returned to the "run" position when the engine has started and is running, the 12V is disconnected and the reduced voltage that comes through the resistor wire to the coil.
Steve, I'm not sure, but I think the Pertronix Ignitor II is supposed tp work with full 12 voltage and does not require the reduced voltage going to the coil.
When using an electronic ignition (like an HEI, Pertronix,Mallory etc.) unless the manufacturer requires a reduced voltage, resistance wires should be removed. The reduced voltage was an artifact left over from the old points system, when reduced voltage was used to extend the life of ignition points. In an electronic system, there are no points so reduced voltage isn't need to protect the non existant points.
In the instructions with the older Pertronix systems (I have the older Ignitor System) the installer is instructed to "USE" the resistance wire or ballast resistor that is in the ignition circuitry.
If you need more complete instructions on my setup, I'll upload a sketch of how I wired up my mini-starter/ignition system.

Pedro'74

Steve (Smokehouse):

I have an older Pertronix on my car, and a mini starter without the "R" terminal. It starts OK, but not as fast as it was before, so I'm interested in this set-up you described. Here's a couple of stupid questions: if you have 12V at the "S" terminal when you're cranking, then why not connect the "S" terminal directly to the coil? Why is the relay needed? Second, where can I get this relay? I just go to a parts store and ask for "a relay", or do I need a number, spec, etc?

Thanks,
-Pedro

Smokehouse69

Pedro,
I had the same thought when I originally put on my starter. But for some reason, it didn't work. I order to get my car started when cold, I was forced to take a piece wire with aligator clips on each end and then raise the hood, clip one end to the "+" terminal of the coil and the other to the 12v out terminal on the alternator, get in the car and crank it up. It would start instantly.
When I had the wire (normally connected to the "R" terminal on the old type solenoid) connected to the "S" terminal, the car just wouldn't start up easily.
When I'd use the aligator clip method, the car would start instantly (after a the normally 5 second Pertronix wait.)
The relay I have was originally going to be used to replace my A/C blower relay. I fixed my old relay so I didn't need this one. As far as getting a relay, just about any 4 terminal relay should work. All you have to do is make sure that you know which terminals do what. I pried the cap off the relay I had and figured out which terminal did what. Relays are very simple electronic switches, when voltage is applied to one side of the circuit, it activates an electomagnet that closes a set of contacts that routes 12volts through the relay. When power is cut to the electro-magnet the contacts seperate and voltage stops flowing through the relay.
I drew a picture of my setup, and was going to upload it to my forum webspace, but the forum webpages are shutdown.
I can email you a copy if you want it. I isn't much of a drawing but it describes my setup.

Pedro'74

Steve,

Thanks a lot for your reply. I'd appreciate if you could email me the diagram (teixeira@brandeis.edu). I'll post it here after I get it.

I'm not having as much problem as you had, though. My car usually starts OK, but it takes 1-2 secs (it used to start immediately before the starter replacement), or sometimes it doesn't start in the first try, but it fires right up when I try a second time.

Thanks again,
-Pedro

Pedro'74

Allright, so here is Steve's drawing. Please bear with me, b/c my server has been acting up lately, so you may see a red "X" below. If that happens, try to reload the page, or try again later.



Thanks again, Steve.

-Pedro