bb69

Monty,
I am also considering a TT small block for a Camaro project. From what I have been able to find out, the LS1 aluminum block is good for 600HP. Above that, many of the guys are using the 6.0L iron block because it's more stable. However, it is twice the weight of the aluminum block. As for the LS7 block, that is another story. The LS7 block is completely different. I believe it's much stronger.

As for why we don't talk about LS engines here, I think it's just due to the shear number of guys doing it. I would love to see more of it. It will just take some time, and an interesting project like this one.

Ken

groovyjay

I understand why. To the original topic: Go with the new LSx engine, there's tons of different ways to build them, parts are available. LPE has been running 1200hp for "ages" now.

Monty

I'm not a big fan of World Products, but their new Warhawk LS7X block has got me drooling. It's about $2000 less than a C5R block and they offer one with a 9.800" deck and 4.115" bore, and it will take up to a 4.250" stroke. I think it would make a solid foundation for a new project, along with their 12* LS7 heads. I don't think it will be available until this spring though.

I'm either going to go that way or go with the 9.500" deck Dart aluminum SBC block with their 15* heads.

JoeC427

Hey Monty,
Welcome back. Like most folks, I followed your 82 project from start to finish.
I'm sure your next one will be even better.
We just have one question. Why not built a BBC and place the turbos out bound just in side the rear of the front fenderwells? Are you scared you might never go back to a small block? You could build a mild 540 with twin turbos... It would be one of a kind: just a thought.......

Take care,

Joe

69 N.O.X. RATT

Welcome back Monty, the LS-7 heads would be trick but for the amount of boost the motor will see, what about some of the 12-14 degree stuff from Pro-action, Brodix, Little Chiefs, etc. Much bigger ports and better flow. Of course you need the cu. in. (or boost) to back it up, which I am sure you will.

Monty

Before I bought my boat, I'll admit I had a bias for SBC's but I've got alot of repsect for BBC's now and how easy it is to make a ton of power reliably and relatively inexpensively. I thought about a BBC for the Corvette, especially after the great results I had with the two Dart Big M 540's I built for my boat. With a mild roller cam, AFR315CNC heads, Victor Jr intake and a Holley 850 carb, I made almost 700hp each on pump gas with 9:1 compression. They were reliable and never gave me any problems even though I'd run them WOT at 6400 rpm for up to an hour or so at a time. I never even removed the valvecovers. Just changed the oil every 20 hours.

But their physical size and weight turn me off as a basis for my Corvette project, especially if you go the turbo route. As you can see from the TT SBC 427 I built, all that plumbing, the turbos, wastegates, intercooler, etc takes up alot of space. As mentioned there is alot of emply space behind the front fender wells, I might give that location alot of consideration for placing the turbo's. Heat and oil return would be issues that would have to be addressed, though I do like the idea of placing them low and out of sight. My other engine looked very cluttered with everything up top and in front.

With one of the aluminum small blocks and aluminum heads, I could build a complete engine that would probably not weigh much more than a bare cast iron BBC block.

As for aftermarket LS7 vs. traditional SBC based engines, I'm still debating the pro's/con's. SBC parts have obviously been around a long time and compared to the LS7 stuff, they're alot cheaper and available from many more vendors. However, as far as chevy power goes, the LSx engines are the future, they're physically more compact, lighter, and more efficient. The new LS7 blocks and heads also have several features that make them especially attractive to me. They have provisions for 2 extra head studs per cylinder, which goes a long way with forced induction and the block is available with a 9.800" deck height which would allow you to run a 6.6" (!) rod with a 4.0" stroke resulting in a 1.65 rod/stroke ratio in a 427. Or you could even build a 454 and a 6.4" rod and end up with a 1.52 rod/stroke ratio which equals that of a a typical 383 that is widely used.

To me, whether an engine is NA or forced induction, the cylinder heads are the most important component, and flow is the most important factor in determining the potential power output of the engine. Even boosted engines benefit from efficient heads. I need to do some more research on what the 12* LS7 cylinder heads are flowing, and compare that to what you can get with the 12/14/15/16/18 degree SBC heads.

groovyjay

That's your answer right there! LSx!!!

MotorHead

Good to see you are in the planning stage, hope you stay with the old school stuff, Little Chiefs on that Dart Iron Eagle block or aluminum block would be cool

VETDRMS

I second looking into the Little Chief heads from dart, I guess the only downside is that they are $5500 from dart fully finished...

MotorHead

I guess the ultimate would be having the new Corvette LS7 with a twin turbo in a C3

lostpatrolman

The aluminum ls1 block is mostly bulletproof, I have never heard of one cracking due to too much power. The only weak point with them is main journal walk up in the 1000hp region. I believe a girdle fixes that problem though.

lostpatrolman

Monty, the head technology for the lsx engines has been developing at an extremely rapid rate lately. It seems all the big names are trying to break their way in. Here is a thread on the flow #'s for some soon to be released TSF heads, this is on the small 3.9" bore.
These guys seem to be producing some insane #'s
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414890
here is their website.
http://www.etheads.com/

Monty

I did a little research into the Dart Little Chiefs and I talked to Jeff at Fast Times about them yesterday. He hasn't built an engine with them yet and didn't know a whole lot about them. I haven't seen the flow numbers for them, but I'm assuming 400cfm is on the ball park, although it might be .900". I prefer to keep lift below .700" for the street. I read that the Little Chief's were about $10,000 a pair - that's too much to me for a set of heads for a street car. I could be wrong, but that was the price mentioned on a post I read on another site. Jeff said he'd look into them for me and we're going to talk again on Friday as I'd like to get something going soon - at least in terms of procuring the components to build the long block. Also, I read that the lifter bores are relocated for the Little Chiefs, so you have to have either Dart machine the block for them or order the block without the lifter bores drilled and have your machine shop do it for you. That's in addition to the typicall offset lifters and offset shaft rockers.

Since I 'm getting a late start in terms of winter projects, I probably won't start fabbing the turbo system until next winter. Which means I will have plenty of time to "ultra detail" it in the meantime. I get the car next Friday and am planning on doing the basics first after I get a chance to go through the car - brakes, trailing arms, suspension, bearings, bushings, ujoints, body and interior cosmetics, etc.

I am really starting to lean towards the LS7 based engine though. A large part of that preference is simply due to the physical size of the engine. If I'm not mistaken, the LSx block are 3 inches shorter than an SBC. Trying to package everything intelligently into the C3 body is a real challenge, smaller external engine dimensions would certainly help. While I am proud of the TT SBC 427 I built, the engine compartment was very dense, at least up top and infront of the engine. As the guys at Fast Times said when they saw it the first, I stuffed 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag. I had to remove the headers, turbo's, wastegates, and downpipes to remove/install the engine in the car because it was actually wider than the hood opening.

BTW, is JCL still around and is he still making high-flow mufflers for the Corvette sidepipes? The car I'm getting has the aftermarket sidepipes on it, but I'd like to fab some sidepipes that fit under the '69 Vette sidepipe covers.

Also, what's the deal with Speed Direct's Steeriods system? I think I was the forst, or one of the first guys to install it several years ago and I liked it. thought it made a significant improvement in drivability, easy to install etc. But I've heard some serious criticisms about it recently and claims that alot of people were dissatisfied with it. The car I'm getting has manual steering, so I gotta do something.

my72vette454

Hey Monty, I built a big block twin turbo last year and have the turbos mounted behind the tires in the fenders and it works great. They are high enough so the oil returns to the pan work fine and heat doesnt seem to be a problem either. I dont have anything insulated on the turbos or the pipes and the fenders dont get as hot as say a car sitting in the sun for a few hours. The headers are designed about like the sidepipe headers except they turn up after they go under the frame and the turbos sit on top of them with the wastegates branching off just before the turbos. Coming out of the sidepipes I ran the exhaust back down and out along the side of the car under sidepipe covers. Everything works good except I think the wastegates are too small as I cant turn the boost down to the gate spring pressure. Looking foreward to your build!!

Mike

LiveandLetDrive

Monty, what are you doing with the rest of the car? Similar sleeper-ish look like the last one? VBP suspension or something custom?

-Chris

Monty

It will definitely be a sleeper again. It will look stock externally with minor exceptions limited to possibly aftermarket wheels and sidepipes (either '69 replica's or the popular 4 into 1's)

I've never really been a fan of any of the aftermarket alterations to the body lines, etc. Aftermarket wheels are a possibility, but they have to accentuate the stock look. Ultramodern wheels on a classic car just don't look right to me.

As for the suspension, I really haven't decided yet. It's easy to just bolt on a front and rear transverse elaf spring kit from VBP, and they work well. I'll definitely keep the IRS, but I may look into a 4/5 link rear suspension. Coilovers on all 4 corners are a possibility. What I don't want to do is cut the car up or make changes that can't be reversed. I'll definitely go with Speedway Engineering anti-roll/ sway bars again and fab my own links.

I'm going by the machine shop again tomorrow and I'm going to get the ball rolling on building a TT 427 LS7.

Garfield_81

I can't wait until you start working on this. I found your site long before I started coming onto this forum Monty and was amazed from the beginning. I've been wanting to tackle a setup like this so I would love to see your new project in the works. I'll be watching it like a hawk.

Monty

Thanks for all the "Welcome Backs" and interest in my projects, both past and future. I would just like to point out that I had alot of help from guys on this forum, other forums, the guys at Fast Times, research from the internet, magazine articles, etc.

groovyjay

In that case Guldstrands 5-link will be out of the question for you.



I'm putting it on my TT project and it requires A LOT of frame modications to make it right.

Twin_Turbo

I thought you didn't have any other pics of it? Why not post the ones you already have hosted @ finnshark