TedH

Since my 'garage rebuild' in 1999, I've had persistent oil control problems (read consumption). Never fouled the plugs but the engine had an appetite for about a quart every 1000 miles. Also, in the past couple years, valvetrain noise increased and even after adjusting the rockers to 3/4 turn after zero valve lash, I still got noise.

So, I've been shopping around for alternatives from buying a fresh crate engine, buying a rebuilt 'Gen 1' engine from the builders (ASE, Golen, and others) , having the engine rebuilt or doing it myself.

After calling and speaking to 'John' at Engine Lab here in Tampa, I'm going to take the plunge on May 9 and drop the car off for an engine overhaul. John and I had a good long talk and I emphasized that I wanted to keep it to a rebuild and my laundry list of expectations including:

- I'll provide the Crane Energizer 272-H10 cam and lifter kit. They wanted another $130 to upgrade the rebuild from the basic cam to an off-brand equivalent. Figured for $130 I can buy the exact cam that I use today.
- I'll provide the information to them so they can set up the timing such that it is same as today; 25 degrees BTDC at idle (700-800rpm) and 35 degrees total, 'all in' at 2500rpm.
- Carb and distributor are not to be altered whatsoever (they are set just fine as-is).

What John described as the rebuild:

Namebrand bearings, freeze plugs, moly rings, hypereutectic pistons, seals/gaskets, oil pump, timing set, etc. All cleaning and machining of the block and cylinder heads (reuse my DART Iron Eagles with just clean-up, new seals and 3-angle valve cut).

I'm hoping there is no damage to the hard parts in the engine (block, rods, head castings & moving parts, rockers, pushrods, etc.) as that would be extra. It actually runs very strong with the exception of the oil consumption and valvetrain noise.

Price (with their cam) is $2899 which also includes, engine removal, teardown, rebuild, assembly, simtest, 2000rpm cam break in and engine tuning (set timing).

Additional assumptions:
- Block can be safely bored beyond the current .020 overbore
- Crank and rods can be cleaned up and reused
- Rockers and pushrods can be reused (they were replaced new with the DARD heads just a few years ago).
- There are no 'surprises'

As I mentioned, I'll be providing my cam/lifters so I'm hoping to see some 'credit' off of that $2899 price since I won't be using the base cam/lifters they offer with that price.

Considering the price of $2899 includes a whole lot of labor at a Tampa shop that gets good press on the forum, I figure I'm saving alot of aggravation that I really want to avoid (removal, teardown, assembly, installation and tuning).

My objective in all of this is to finally be able to take off in the '80 and not be concerned the darn lifter noise isn't going to morph into something much more serious and that I'm not going to run out of oil if I decide to take an extended trip. Going to put the total amt into the '80 at north of $23K but I am determined to not focus too much on resale and more on the enjoyment factor. This care is alot of fun!

Wish me luck!

sfallison

Sounds like the price is in the ballpark.

I had my 71 GTO rebuilt 10yrs ago (don't have her anymore), and paid $3200.00 in California. I had a thrashed bearing (sucked a lifter at 120mph).

GOSFAST

That cam is probably much smaller than your factory cam. I'll tell you, if your looking for any type performance improvement you'll be going backwards. That cam is totally a gas "mileage cam", with a 216 degree @ .050 and 272 advertised. I'm not sure what the L48 option included. I can say, we just took off the dyno a 350SB/300HP (factory rated from G.M. with some 10:1+ comp. ratio) from an original 1969 Camaro, while the resto was being done, we did the motor. Knocked it down to 9.2:1 (for 93 octane) and worked the rest of it over, even used the original cam specs(224 @.050 x .450"/.460" lift x 114 L/S). The wide lobe separation is critical to cars that may have to deal with vacuum problems, such as power brakes. The wide L/S maintains higher vacuum levels. The dyno numbers were impressive for what we had, don't forget, this is with stock cast exh. manifolds which were used for the dyno test. We made 360HP @ 5800 RPM and 384Ft. Lbs. torque @ 4100 RPM, and the best part is he gets fantastic gas mileage for what he has. Not that we concerned ourselves with that part. Thank's Gary in N.Y.
PS I can get the dyno sheet faxed to you if necessary!

GOSFAST

That cam is probably much smaller than your factory cam. I'll tell you, if your looking for any type performance improvement you'll be going backwards. That cam is totally a gas "mileage cam", with a 216 degree @ .050 and 272 advertised. I'm not sure what the L48 option included. I can say, we just took off the dyno a 350SB/300HP (factory rated from G.M. with some 10:1+ comp. ratio) from an original 1969 Camaro, while the resto was being done, we did the motor. Knocked it down to 9.2:1 (for 93 octane) and worked the rest of it over, even used the original cam specs(224 @.050 x .450"/.460" lift x 114 L/S). The wide lobe separation is critical to cars that may have to deal with vacuum problems, such as power brakes. The wide L/S maintains higher vacuum levels. The dyno numbers were impressive for what we had, don't forget, this is with stock cast exh. manifolds which were used for the dyno test. We made 360HP @ 5800 RPM and 384Ft. Lbs. torque @ 4100 RPM, and the best part is he gets fantastic gas mileage for what he has. Not that we concerned ourselves with that part. Thank's Gary in N.Y.
PS I can get the dyno sheet faxed to you if necessary!

GOSFAST

That cam is probably much smaller than your factory cam. I'll tell you, if your looking for any type performance improvement you'll be going backwards. That cam is totally a gas "mileage cam", with a 216 degree @ .050 and 272 advertised. I'm not sure what the L48 option included. I can say, we just took off the dyno a 350SB/300HP (factory rated from G.M. with some 10:1+ comp. ratio) from an original 1969 Camaro, while the resto was being done, we did the motor. Knocked it down to 9.2:1 (for 93 octane) and worked the rest of it over, even used the original cam specs(224 @.050 x .450"/.460" lift x 114 L/S). The wide lobe separation is critical to cars that may have to deal with vacuum problems, such as power brakes. It yeilds higher vacuum readings. The dyno numbers were impressive for what we had, don't forget, this is with stock cast exh. manifolds which were used for the dyno test. We made 360HP @ 5800 RPM and 384Ft. Lbs. torque @ 4100 RPM, and the best part is he gets fantastic gas mileage for what he has. Not that we concerned ourselves with that part. Thank's Gary in N.Y.
PS I can get the dyno sheet faxed to you if necessary!

TedH

Actually, the stock '327/300hp' cam that came in the L48 was in the neighborhood of 398/408 Gross duration so the 272-H10 is quite an improvement with 454/454 Gross lift. This engine is making 225hp/288tq at the rear wheels so it is much healthier than the L48, in any stock form, could ever achieve.

Sounds like you had the 327/350hp cam in your rebuild that, with wider lobe separation, is just a bit beefier than my 272-H10 cam.

stingry

Ted - 18 months ago it cost me around that and I dropped off and picked up the motor. I had some port/polish/balancing done. If you are thinking about roller-tip rockers now is a good time also as the engine is being pulled apart. I was cheap and re-used my old stock rockers and now I am changing them.

If you are buying a new cam look at the Lunati Voodoo cams. They sell for around $180 with lifters. There are lots of different RPM ranges to choose from.

If you found you have bent pushrods etc then let me know as I have my original ones and all except two are straight. You can have them for shipping if you need them. I also have valves, springs and and stuff also if any of that is useful. I will be out of country till 13 May though from 3 May.

You will be happy with the Labs work. There after sale service is great also.

Pete

TedH

I'm going to stick with the Summit stamped steel rockers with grooved pivot ***** that I installed with the DART heads. Also installed a fresh set of push rods (also Summit) at the time. Thanks for the offer on the spare parts but I'll see what they find; I have a box of the 'take-off's' (pushrods and rockers) from the engine that I'll make avail to them if they find issues with what is on the car.

Matt Gruber

ted
what has been done to cut oil use? since '99
what rings now? next?
valve seals now? next?
PCV system now?
How many miles since it was bored .020?

Matt Gruber

i'm thinking new seals and a lifter and it's fixed?

TedH

I'm thinking, at a minimum, pull the pistons and the bottom end to determine the extent of cylinder wall damage (or not) or whether I just have a ring incorrectly installed. If cylinder wall damage, bore it to .030-.040 over and hang new pistons, hot-tank and clean the block, clean the heads (or not).

Then, inspect the rockers and pushrods for wear and replace if necessary, new bearings all around (cheap insurance), gaskets/seals and install my fresh cam and lifters...

Maybe I SHOULD do this myself... I THINK I'll need help with the engine pulling and re-install but a cherry picker helps ALOT...

Any takers on assisting? I'm in Dunedin, FL (right beside Clearwater).

TedH

Interested in inspecting the pistons/rings and cylinder walls for me? I'm thinking that is where my oil control problem is since the plugs do not foul (I would expect fouling if the new DART heads' valve seals/guides were a problem).

I've tried removing the PCV and just using a vent cap. I see some oil coming up there but it isn't exiting unless it is vapor (no oil around the vent cap). I'm thinking rings since that would explain the cylinder pressure getting past them and pushing oil out of the pcv as well as allowing more oil than I want to get UP past the rings into the combustion chamber for exhaust. I have found oil in the pcv hose leading to the carb and that is why I tried removing the PCV and just installing one of those cheap chrome 'caps' that fit where the PCV was. Have watched the plugs religiously and change once a year. Whenever I do, they just have some carbon (not alot) and normal coloration indicating good, steady burn of fuel.

Matt Gruber

still need above
and
was it honed with a torque plate?
and

does non-pcv breather connect to air cleaner base, center?

steves_77vette

I have heard from a couple of engine builders that this kind of problem can come from the initial break-in procedure used after the re-man. Because the rings and bore are wearing into each others pattern, they say it is very important to do the initial break in on first start with 2000 rpm for 15-20 minutes. Then take it out and drive it, hard but not insanely hard, by going through the rpm band, speed up and down, that kind of stuff.

The reason I've heard about doing break-in at lower rpm and
"babying" the motor for the first 500 miles is that there is not enough load and action between the ring and the bore such that it will leaves some micro-scopic gaps that will then let oil into the bore on compression and burn up.

So, how did you do the break-in last time? And, I'd talk to your build about it.

TedH

I still have the air cleaner connected to right valve cover elbow tube; the air cleaner connects at the stock location for the 80 L48. The valve cover elbow enters on the outer perimeter of the air cleaner with one of those cheap filters that is held in place in the air cleaner with a clamp.

I assume honed with torque plate but receipt does not show for sure.

TedH

Well, I've sealed the engine up tight as a drum. A former power steering leaking caused me to resort to new intake gaskets and several valve cover gasket sets until I realized it wasn't the engine leaking (which I assumed was the cause of oil loss).

I also replaced the cylinder heads with the DARTs not only for power increase but in hopes that I may resolve a phantom valve seal leak.

I've watched the spark plugs closely and they show no signs of oil fouling BUT I do see some residual oil around the spark plug bases on, if I recall correctly, the #7 or #5 spark plugs (or both).

Matt Gruber

it's not bad enough(1qt in 1000mi) to warrant a rebuild. that's my opinion.

TedH

OK. I was too embarrased to say. This thing drinks oil in my opinion. I may drive it 200-250 miles and have to add a half quart of oil; essentially a half quart of oil with every tank of gas.

If I drive it to Orlando and back; I run the risk of being down 2 quarts from the highway driving (it drinks it faster). What is amazing is that it doesn't have a cloud of smoke following it.

bobs77vet

for arguments sake lets say your exhaust valve seals are crap and the heads worn...why would oil flowing into the exhaust ports smoke? perhaps its not leasking into the combustion areas

Matt Gruber

1 qt in 400-500 is excessive.
did u run it without PCV for a test?
has the intake been retorqued 3 times?
how many miles since .020?
what rings did u buy?
i predict a rebuild, without proper analysis of the cause, will have high oil use also.