1969 ZL1 Production
01-22-2023, 05:43 PM
#541
Melting Slicks
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Here is what is written in the description of the video Sotheby's put out on this orange car: "After much scrutinous review of its comprehensive factory documentation, 710209 was awarded Bloomington Gold certification and formally recognized as the first of the two factory-built ZL-1 Corvettes." Really, Bloomington certified it?
01-22-2023, 06:44 PM
#542
Here is what is written in the description of the video Sotheby's put out on this orange car: "After much scrutinous review of its comprehensive factory documentation, 710209 was awarded Bloomington Gold certification and formally recognized as the first of the two factory-built ZL-1 Corvettes." Really, Bloomington certified it?
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FmesRElV j5pI%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2EboLziE0jso8948I4Xp bemaci1QKFYi5MOb7YSc-YFfMw6Lh0XR1PoA0&h=AT2E8w4jsC_9p3hv3FbLj jvFf_NsgGNu7p1kbB-HLzhP2z28stEI-ZrHRi4MUT5DuB9xwVTHM8Eu1lIUNFTZLOrpElbsK AP3apJJ86jhN_hPIeeYZet6UHyCeHsGxWp5IktrT xo&__tn__=%2CmH-R&c[0]=AT0UuutvP2KCKO_Qplyhs4PmSeltI9OS0TMoUfM 8zR7EsXjOEgMJyBJdmpT-ELt0gNLdifBBSZ6MjFoCSELMwMDOrTDncpTdoIDM GwOrzYlcINoW_E9-mp3ZdY2MMXW5yZ-QCvhy1DxmDsMEWpWp7mMf5p1Sqoqkc8kbk76N-NsVGUQTT9ycPZFeFLHhuqm09Pcj26O1IUKIPin1w XFMO1w
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FmesRElV j5pI%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2EboLziE0jso8948I4Xp bemaci1QKFYi5MOb7YSc-YFfMw6Lh0XR1PoA0&h=AT2E8w4jsC_9p3hv3FbLj jvFf_NsgGNu7p1kbB-HLzhP2z28stEI-ZrHRi4MUT5DuB9xwVTHM8Eu1lIUNFTZLOrpElbsK AP3apJJ86jhN_hPIeeYZet6UHyCeHsGxWp5IktrT xo&__tn__=%2CmH-R&c[0]=AT0UuutvP2KCKO_Qplyhs4PmSeltI9OS0TMoUfM 8zR7EsXjOEgMJyBJdmpT-ELt0gNLdifBBSZ6MjFoCSELMwMDOrTDncpTdoIDM GwOrzYlcINoW_E9-mp3ZdY2MMXW5yZ-QCvhy1DxmDsMEWpWp7mMf5p1Sqoqkc8kbk76N-NsVGUQTT9ycPZFeFLHhuqm09Pcj26O1IUKIPin1w XFMO1w
They also have a document in the auction files and paint the picture that Al Grenning has approved the tank sticker, when in fact that is not the case. I have been tracking corvettes for a while now and in my opinion this is the biggest spin job by an auction company, the owner and anyone else involved in promoting this car, all for the sake of money The truth is they have presented ZERO verified evidence that this car left the factory as an RPO ZL1.Given the fact they are trying to stich together a bunch of questionable documents and circumstantial evidence, they don't have any verified docs to support thier case. The sad thing is if they left the gulf paint scheme on the car and presented it as an L88 M40 car that was raced with a ZL1 block, the car could probably still get close the the 1 million mark.
Last edited by DKM-106; 01-22-2023 at 06:52 PM.
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mikelj (01-22-2023)
01-22-2023, 08:12 PM
#544
Melting Slicks
If the Tank Sticker is Legit, (I did read the Forensic Report, hard to tell what the conclusion was). But I think it's Real.
If so, would that be Case Closed? That is the DNA...
If so, would that be Case Closed? That is the DNA...
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CarguyGreg (01-24-2023)
01-22-2023, 08:36 PM
#545
The tank sticker has been rejected by NCRS validation. I read the foresenic report and I didn't see anywhere that they determined the tank sticker to be authentic, just that it has characterics that it could be of that era. In regards to the evaluation by Al Grenning, it doesn't say he authenticated it, just that there was a thorough investigation and a report is available.The text is misleading in my opinion. From what I understand, Al has not signed off on the tank sticker.
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mikelj (01-22-2023)
01-22-2023, 08:53 PM
#546
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"The sad thing is if they left the gulf paint scheme on the car and presented it as an L88 M40 car that was raced with a ZL1 block, the car could probably still get close the the 1 million mark." But surely the owner would never sell for such a paltry amount after claiming this is the first Corvette ZL-1 produced?
01-22-2023, 09:26 PM
#547
"The sad thing is if they left the gulf paint scheme on the car and presented it as an L88 M40 car that was raced with a ZL1 block, the car could probably still get close the the 1 million mark." But surely the owner would never sell for such a paltry amount after claiming this is the first Corvette ZL-1 produced?
01-22-2023, 10:17 PM
#548
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"The sad thing is if they left the gulf paint scheme on the car and presented it as an L88 M40 car that was raced with a ZL1 block, the car could probably still get close the the 1 million mark." But surely the owner would never sell for such a paltry amount after claiming this is the first Corvette ZL-1 produced?
I am betting that potential buyers for this car if they know of this thread have even read it. People with this kind of “play money” seldom concern themselves with this kind of thing and their additude is that no one can conclusively disprove the picture the auction company is painting especially since the membership here can’t agree on anything.
01-22-2023, 10:52 PM
#549
I don’t know where you guys come up with these numbers or insinuations of prices for a car that MAY be one of two? When did the yellow car last sell and for how much? THERE ARE NO COMPARABLES FOR THIS CAR. The remark that the if the yellow one would sell it would take over $10 million and that it is not for sale is simply setting the stage for fishing expedition and I am betting that if there was a REAL offer for some where near that it would be gone. These are not Fararris. These cars are simply worth what a high bidder will pay the day it is for sale and that is simply for bragging rights and doesn’t mean it will be worth more the next day or any other day in the future.
I am betting that potential buyers for this car if they know of this thread have even read it. People with this kind of “play money” seldom concern themselves with this kind of thing and their additude is that no one can conclusively disprove the picture the auction company is painting especially since the membership here can’t agree on anything.
I am betting that potential buyers for this car if they know of this thread have even read it. People with this kind of “play money” seldom concern themselves with this kind of thing and their additude is that no one can conclusively disprove the picture the auction company is painting especially since the membership here can’t agree on anything.
01-22-2023, 11:05 PM
#550
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The yellow ZL1 is the rarest US production car in the world. I can tell you the yellow car is not for sale, but if it was Roger wouldn't take 2-3 million for it. There are other US production muscle car and corvettes that have sold for more than $3 million. G10 million isn't just a number I threw out there. It's a number that that been discussed regarding the car.
Auction are a place to sell cars with questionable history/documentation. The auction company legally owns the car when you buy it, insulates the seller and the auction company has ironclad boiler plate disclosures to protect them.
Buy a car directly from an owner where even if he states an AS IS purchase he is still liable for fraudulent representation.
I still stand by ALL that I have written above.
01-22-2023, 11:57 PM
#551
Melting Slicks
I am betting that potential buyers for this car if they know of this thread have even read it. People with this kind of “play money” seldom concern themselves with this kind of thing and their additude is that no one can conclusively disprove the picture the auction company is painting especially since the membership here can’t agree on anything.
Interestingly, what you describe happens more often with the Muscle car market which is far less expensive but who like to think they are high rollers. And it’s unfortunate for a multitude of reasons as we all know. No reason to go off on that tangent at this time.
As for the CF membership not agreeing on this car. Well, then again thats exactly what the problem with this car is, isn’t it? This ZL1 is far from clear cut. If it was, then agreement would be easy.
As for values I really have no clue. I’ll defer to you, Roy S or Jon H on that. I just threw a guess out to have fun. I am content to sit back and see what happens. Lots of people with big reputations backing this somewhat questionable car. And quite honestly after watching Kevin’s soliloquy, it comes across more like desperation than anything else. Not such a great look. That could be a bad thing if by some crazy chance another ZL1 ever shows up in the future with rock solid pedigree. But it will make for a great forum thread starter!!!
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mikelj (01-23-2023)
01-23-2023, 09:57 AM
#553
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Has Kevin ever said or signed anything stating he guarantees or even is convinced/believes this is the real deal?
01-23-2023, 11:24 AM
#555
Melting Slicks
I was just turning 1 years old when this car was built. I don’t know anything about what GM did back in the day if you knew someone or had connections. If John M thru his race connections could get a favor would they have taken an L88 off the line and put in a painted ZL1 motor and sold it new for him? I could picture him getting the car as he says he did, them dropping the tank to get the tank sticker some 40 years later and then……surprise…. I don’t know. Is that possible?
01-23-2023, 12:02 PM
#556
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mikelj (01-23-2023)
01-23-2023, 12:44 PM
#558
Paul,
To my knowledge the car owner declared it to be an OEM motor as confirmation on the judging sheets. The engine stamp was judged and deemed to be non oem, thus the car should have only been able to recive a silver certification. However somehow before the judging team had the chance to judge the car the owner switched it to self declared non oem so a gold certificate could be achieved. According to the judging guidlines the owner should have had to bring the car back the following year to receive a gold award. Not sure what happened in the judging process and why the owner was alloed to redeclare the engine stamp:
"ELIGIBLE FOR GOLD CERTIFICATE No detectable deviation from known OEM stamps (ghosts, rust, damage, anomaly OK) APPEAR OEM Detectable deviation (size, font, shape, location, etc.) unknown among OEM stamp variations, yet unclear to inspector team whether or not OEM. Authenticity cannot be conclusively determined. INCONCLUSIVE If owner openly declares this on application, the engine stamp pad will NOT be evaluated by an inspector but still remain eligible for Gold. Stamps may range from nearly perfect replicas to generic or totally missing (See Defi nitions Section). Since it has already been declared Non-OEM by the owner, there is nothing left for the inspectors to determine. Owner Declared NON-OEM (Engine stamps not further evaluated) LIMITED TO SILVER CERTIFICATE On the other hand, if owner declares OEM or I Don’t Know on the application, stamp inspectors will thoroughly evaluate the engine numbers using all available data, techniques, and knowledge. In the event that stamps are determined by the inspectors to be Non-OEM, the vehicle will NOT be eligible for Gold that year. However, if the owner applies the following year and openly declares Non-OEM on the vehicle application, it will then be eligible for Gold. If OWNER declares Non-OEM, the vehicle can get a Gold that year. If INSPECTORS determine it to be Non-OEM, the vehicle cannot get a Gold that year."
To my knowledge the car owner declared it to be an OEM motor as confirmation on the judging sheets. The engine stamp was judged and deemed to be non oem, thus the car should have only been able to recive a silver certification. However somehow before the judging team had the chance to judge the car the owner switched it to self declared non oem so a gold certificate could be achieved. According to the judging guidlines the owner should have had to bring the car back the following year to receive a gold award. Not sure what happened in the judging process and why the owner was alloed to redeclare the engine stamp:
"ELIGIBLE FOR GOLD CERTIFICATE No detectable deviation from known OEM stamps (ghosts, rust, damage, anomaly OK) APPEAR OEM Detectable deviation (size, font, shape, location, etc.) unknown among OEM stamp variations, yet unclear to inspector team whether or not OEM. Authenticity cannot be conclusively determined. INCONCLUSIVE If owner openly declares this on application, the engine stamp pad will NOT be evaluated by an inspector but still remain eligible for Gold. Stamps may range from nearly perfect replicas to generic or totally missing (See Defi nitions Section). Since it has already been declared Non-OEM by the owner, there is nothing left for the inspectors to determine. Owner Declared NON-OEM (Engine stamps not further evaluated) LIMITED TO SILVER CERTIFICATE On the other hand, if owner declares OEM or I Don’t Know on the application, stamp inspectors will thoroughly evaluate the engine numbers using all available data, techniques, and knowledge. In the event that stamps are determined by the inspectors to be Non-OEM, the vehicle will NOT be eligible for Gold that year. However, if the owner applies the following year and openly declares Non-OEM on the vehicle application, it will then be eligible for Gold. If OWNER declares Non-OEM, the vehicle can get a Gold that year. If INSPECTORS determine it to be Non-OEM, the vehicle cannot get a Gold that year."
In practice, when the Stamp Team finds a stamp that appears to be Non-OEM and the car is presented as having an OEM engine, the owner is given the opportunity at that time to switch to a non-OEM certificate. I have seen it happen several times. I will let you discern on your own what the reasoning for that may be. The owner otherwise has the option to return the following year, as is written in the policy.
Just some clarification on what occurs in comparison to what the policy is written to be.
01-23-2023, 12:47 PM
#559
Despite what is written in their guidelines, what actually happens each year at BG is different.
In practice, when the Stamp Team finds a stamp that appears to be Non-OEM and the car is presented as having an OEM engine, the owner is given the opportunity at that time to switch to a non-OEM certificate. I have seen it happen several times. I will let you discern on your own what the reasoning for that may be. The owner otherwise has the option to return the following year, as is written in the policy.
Just some clarification on what occurs in comparison to what the policy is written to be.
In practice, when the Stamp Team finds a stamp that appears to be Non-OEM and the car is presented as having an OEM engine, the owner is given the opportunity at that time to switch to a non-OEM certificate. I have seen it happen several times. I will let you discern on your own what the reasoning for that may be. The owner otherwise has the option to return the following year, as is written in the policy.
Just some clarification on what occurs in comparison to what the policy is written to be.
01-23-2023, 01:26 PM
#560
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From what I understand the original owner is still alive. It would be a simple thing to have him legally deposed and ask him if the car was delivered from the factory with the original aluminum engine. If he would refuse to do it that tells the story either way this would be the REAL answer.