Alternatives To Rivets?
09-11-2014, 01:15 PM
#21
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St. Jude Donor '13,'15,'17,'18,'22-'23
The process of 'riveting' is not as simple as just forming a head to look like the rivet you ground off. To actually function well (firmly hold something in place for a looooonng time), the shank of the rivet needs to expand/swell to completely fill the hole into which it is installed. Without filling the hole completely, the rivet will be very weak and could eventually fail.
Nearly all items riveted by GM were done to permanently attach components with a joint that required some measure of strength. There were very few 'cosmetic' riveting operations. Installing an aluminum rivet into a hole and forming a head on the other side may LOOK like it did from the factory...but it won't LAST like it did from the factory. You might do better to use threaded fasteners (like with BALL JOINTS). If you decide to disassemble something that was never meant to be disassembled and you want it to look authentic, you should have the piece reassembled with a suitable press and forming tools. Better yet....don't take it apart.
Nearly all items riveted by GM were done to permanently attach components with a joint that required some measure of strength. There were very few 'cosmetic' riveting operations. Installing an aluminum rivet into a hole and forming a head on the other side may LOOK like it did from the factory...but it won't LAST like it did from the factory. You might do better to use threaded fasteners (like with BALL JOINTS). If you decide to disassemble something that was never meant to be disassembled and you want it to look authentic, you should have the piece reassembled with a suitable press and forming tools. Better yet....don't take it apart.
I really didn't have any choice on several of the hard points, they were either stripped, had bolts twisted off in them, or were rusted so badly they had near zero structural value. I have no interest in authentic, my 68 was a basket case of the extreme nature and should have had the one year parts stripped off and been sent to the bone yard. It will come back to life as a driver/resto-mod with an 02 Z28 drivetrain (in place), C5 seats, vintage air, hydroboost, etc etc.. Bottom line it needs to be restored to a solid car that I feel safe having my SO drive as it will be her car.
Last edited by Steve C.; 09-12-2014 at 07:04 PM.
09-11-2014, 01:20 PM
#22
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Last edited by Steve C.; 09-12-2014 at 07:02 PM.
09-11-2014, 01:33 PM
#23
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St. Jude Donor '13,'15,'17,'18,'22-'23
Might look at places that sell aircraft supplies to home builders. Aircraft Spruce is an example that has the rivs, bucking bars, slower air hammers, and fasteners that I never thought of. I went to OshKosh a couple of times and learned riveting, basic welding, some sheet metal tricks, all applicable to our hobby.
, I looked around for my Aircraft Spruce catalog but apparently it went to the recyclers while I wasn't looking. I'll do some web surfing on their site, Thanks.
09-11-2014, 03:36 PM
#24
Roger
09-11-2014, 03:46 PM
#25
I went thru over 100 rivets. Like Alan says, the only place I can't get the rivets in is the #1 reinforcement mount. I did get the #4 riveted, but it was tight.
I used an air hammer. I took the pointy chisel that was supplied with it and cut the tip off as short as possible so the air hammer still works. I then put this chisel in a lathe ( a drill press would work) along with a Dremel tool with a, I think, a 3/8inch flat round stone. Ran the lathe with the chisel and hollowed out the chisel end with the stone running perpendicular to the lathe axis. This creates the hollowed out point you need.
Also, no one has mentioned, the rivets need to be cut to length depending on where they are going. Too long a shank and you will never get the air hammer to work the head. I also suspect that the rivet gets work hardened as you hammer because, if the rivet shank is too long, no matter how much you hammer it will never tighten up.
With a hundred rivets, cutting to length gets to be a pain. I made a set of plates with rivet holes in it that I clamp together with screws. I put the fresh rivets inside the holes and clamp the heads, then cut off the shank to length with a protable band saw. I adjust the shank length by adding or removing plates. I can do 10 at a time this way. Others just cut them to length with a large side cutters, but I found this too hit and miss.
In most cases you need two people - there is just no way around this.
About the only place you can do it by yourself is the horizontal surface of the floor and battery box. You need to put a heavy weight on the heads to hold it in place or somehow be able to clamp the head down. Even a small head movement will create a lose rivet.
Once you get set up this goes real fast. I don't think I would want to use screws. I don't trust them working lose.
For all floor board rivets, I added some sealant to the holes. Water gets thru the rivet holes and corrodes the reinforcement part.
The only place I was forced to use screws is the #1 mount and the alarm horn reinforcement plate. Both are riveted at the factory before the pieces are glued together.
Most of the rivets are the same except for heater box studs and rear valance for pre-rear rubber bumpers.
I had to order another 50 rivets just to have on hand.
Time for my gripe: aluminum rivets against steel parts is really bad for corrosion. I'm sure the GM engineers knew this but used them anyways. You will notice that the rivets have turned into white powder. This is aluminum rust. Makes me wonder how the C7 will hold out with it's aluminum frame.
Steve L
73 coupe since new
I used an air hammer. I took the pointy chisel that was supplied with it and cut the tip off as short as possible so the air hammer still works. I then put this chisel in a lathe ( a drill press would work) along with a Dremel tool with a, I think, a 3/8inch flat round stone. Ran the lathe with the chisel and hollowed out the chisel end with the stone running perpendicular to the lathe axis. This creates the hollowed out point you need.
Also, no one has mentioned, the rivets need to be cut to length depending on where they are going. Too long a shank and you will never get the air hammer to work the head. I also suspect that the rivet gets work hardened as you hammer because, if the rivet shank is too long, no matter how much you hammer it will never tighten up.
With a hundred rivets, cutting to length gets to be a pain. I made a set of plates with rivet holes in it that I clamp together with screws. I put the fresh rivets inside the holes and clamp the heads, then cut off the shank to length with a protable band saw. I adjust the shank length by adding or removing plates. I can do 10 at a time this way. Others just cut them to length with a large side cutters, but I found this too hit and miss.
In most cases you need two people - there is just no way around this.
About the only place you can do it by yourself is the horizontal surface of the floor and battery box. You need to put a heavy weight on the heads to hold it in place or somehow be able to clamp the head down. Even a small head movement will create a lose rivet.
Once you get set up this goes real fast. I don't think I would want to use screws. I don't trust them working lose.
For all floor board rivets, I added some sealant to the holes. Water gets thru the rivet holes and corrodes the reinforcement part.
The only place I was forced to use screws is the #1 mount and the alarm horn reinforcement plate. Both are riveted at the factory before the pieces are glued together.
Most of the rivets are the same except for heater box studs and rear valance for pre-rear rubber bumpers.
I had to order another 50 rivets just to have on hand.
Time for my gripe: aluminum rivets against steel parts is really bad for corrosion. I'm sure the GM engineers knew this but used them anyways. You will notice that the rivets have turned into white powder. This is aluminum rust. Makes me wonder how the C7 will hold out with it's aluminum frame.
Steve L
73 coupe since new
09-11-2014, 04:42 PM
#26
Team Owner
The design parameters for 70's vintage Detroit cars was a 'normal' life of about 5 years and a 'maximum' life of about 10. Now that our cars are over 40, some of these dissimilar-metal issues are showing up.
I have no hesitation about putting nuts/bolts where rivets have been. Just use bolts that are strong enough to do the job, and put 'blue' Loctite on the threads when you install/torque them. For riveted joints I would generally choose Grade 5 bolts, as they are strong yet still resistant to shear and/or shock loading. If tensile strength is the only issue with a particular joint, Grade 8 bolts would be even stronger.
I have no hesitation about putting nuts/bolts where rivets have been. Just use bolts that are strong enough to do the job, and put 'blue' Loctite on the threads when you install/torque them. For riveted joints I would generally choose Grade 5 bolts, as they are strong yet still resistant to shear and/or shock loading. If tensile strength is the only issue with a particular joint, Grade 8 bolts would be even stronger.
09-11-2014, 09:29 PM
#27
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St. Jude Donor '13,'15,'17,'18,'22-'23
09-11-2014, 09:42 PM
#28
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St. Jude Donor '13,'15,'17,'18,'22-'23
I went thru over 100 rivets. Like Alan says, the only place I can't get the rivets in is the #1 reinforcement mount. I did get the #4 riveted, but it was tight.
I used an air hammer. I took the pointy chisel that was supplied with it and cut the tip off as short as possible so the air hammer still works. I then put this chisel in a lathe ( a drill press would work) along with a Dremel tool with a, I think, a 3/8inch flat round stone. Ran the lathe with the chisel and hollowed out the chisel end with the stone running perpendicular to the lathe axis. This creates the hollowed out point you need.
Also, no one has mentioned, the rivets need to be cut to length depending on where they are going. Too long a shank and you will never get the air hammer to work the head. I also suspect that the rivet gets work hardened as you hammer because, if the rivet shank is too long, no matter how much you hammer it will never tighten up.
With a hundred rivets, cutting to length gets to be a pain. I made a set of plates with rivet holes in it that I clamp together with screws. I put the fresh rivets inside the holes and clamp the heads, then cut off the shank to length with a protable band saw. I adjust the shank length by adding or removing plates. I can do 10 at a time this way. Others just cut them to length with a large side cutters, but I found this too hit and miss.
In most cases you need two people - there is just no way around this.
About the only place you can do it by yourself is the horizontal surface of the floor and battery box. You need to put a heavy weight on the heads to hold it in place or somehow be able to clamp the head down. Even a small head movement will create a lose rivet.
Once you get set up this goes real fast. I don't think I would want to use screws. I don't trust them working lose.
For all floor board rivets, I added some sealant to the holes. Water gets thru the rivet holes and corrodes the reinforcement part.
The only place I was forced to use screws is the #1 mount and the alarm horn reinforcement plate. Both are riveted at the factory before the pieces are glued together.
Most of the rivets are the same except for heater box studs and rear valance for pre-rear rubber bumpers.
I had to order another 50 rivets just to have on hand.
Time for my gripe: aluminum rivets against steel parts is really bad for corrosion. I'm sure the GM engineers knew this but used them anyways. You will notice that the rivets have turned into white powder. This is aluminum rust. Makes me wonder how the C7 will hold out with it's aluminum frame.
Steve L
73 coupe since new
I used an air hammer. I took the pointy chisel that was supplied with it and cut the tip off as short as possible so the air hammer still works. I then put this chisel in a lathe ( a drill press would work) along with a Dremel tool with a, I think, a 3/8inch flat round stone. Ran the lathe with the chisel and hollowed out the chisel end with the stone running perpendicular to the lathe axis. This creates the hollowed out point you need.
Also, no one has mentioned, the rivets need to be cut to length depending on where they are going. Too long a shank and you will never get the air hammer to work the head. I also suspect that the rivet gets work hardened as you hammer because, if the rivet shank is too long, no matter how much you hammer it will never tighten up.
With a hundred rivets, cutting to length gets to be a pain. I made a set of plates with rivet holes in it that I clamp together with screws. I put the fresh rivets inside the holes and clamp the heads, then cut off the shank to length with a protable band saw. I adjust the shank length by adding or removing plates. I can do 10 at a time this way. Others just cut them to length with a large side cutters, but I found this too hit and miss.
In most cases you need two people - there is just no way around this.
About the only place you can do it by yourself is the horizontal surface of the floor and battery box. You need to put a heavy weight on the heads to hold it in place or somehow be able to clamp the head down. Even a small head movement will create a lose rivet.
Once you get set up this goes real fast. I don't think I would want to use screws. I don't trust them working lose.
For all floor board rivets, I added some sealant to the holes. Water gets thru the rivet holes and corrodes the reinforcement part.
The only place I was forced to use screws is the #1 mount and the alarm horn reinforcement plate. Both are riveted at the factory before the pieces are glued together.
Most of the rivets are the same except for heater box studs and rear valance for pre-rear rubber bumpers.
I had to order another 50 rivets just to have on hand.
Time for my gripe: aluminum rivets against steel parts is really bad for corrosion. I'm sure the GM engineers knew this but used them anyways. You will notice that the rivets have turned into white powder. This is aluminum rust. Makes me wonder how the C7 will hold out with it's aluminum frame.
Steve L
73 coupe since new
09-28-2014, 10:10 PM
#29
Race Director
Thread Starter
I'm just now getting to the part of my project of putting stuff back together and I'm seeing some of the issues some of you posted out.
I went with stock rivets just for the simple look.
1. being by myself i'm having to come up with some unique techniques already to set the easy ones.
2. the stupid rivets they sell don't come in the right size!!!!!!
they're either 3/8 or 5/8.... I NEED 1/2"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no matter where I look i can't find similar large headed rivets in 1/2" Not wanting to hand shorten so many
3. Those Hi Lock screws look awesome except I don't like how much they stick out. wish the nuts on those things were about 1/2 the size at least. Not that anyone will ever notice or see...I guess I'm just being **** about it.
I went with stock rivets just for the simple look.
1. being by myself i'm having to come up with some unique techniques already to set the easy ones.
2. the stupid rivets they sell don't come in the right size!!!!!!
they're either 3/8 or 5/8.... I NEED 1/2"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no matter where I look i can't find similar large headed rivets in 1/2" Not wanting to hand shorten so many
3. Those Hi Lock screws look awesome except I don't like how much they stick out. wish the nuts on those things were about 1/2 the size at least. Not that anyone will ever notice or see...I guess I'm just being **** about it.
09-29-2014, 06:00 AM
#30
I'm just now getting to the part of my project of putting stuff back together and I'm seeing some of the issues some of you posted out.
I went with stock rivets just for the simple look.
1. being by myself i'm having to come up with some unique techniques already to set the easy ones.
2. the stupid rivets they sell don't come in the right size!!!!!!
they're either 3/8 or 5/8.... I NEED 1/2"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no matter where I look i can't find similar large headed rivets in 1/2" Not wanting to hand shorten so many
3. Those Hi Lock screws look awesome except I don't like how much they stick out. wish the nuts on those things were about 1/2 the size at least. Not that anyone will ever notice or see...I guess I'm just being **** about it.
I went with stock rivets just for the simple look.
1. being by myself i'm having to come up with some unique techniques already to set the easy ones.
2. the stupid rivets they sell don't come in the right size!!!!!!
they're either 3/8 or 5/8.... I NEED 1/2"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no matter where I look i can't find similar large headed rivets in 1/2" Not wanting to hand shorten so many
3. Those Hi Lock screws look awesome except I don't like how much they stick out. wish the nuts on those things were about 1/2 the size at least. Not that anyone will ever notice or see...I guess I'm just being **** about it.
Roger