theblackvette

I think because it is the engine that really gives the car its value. Big block cars are generally worth more money. Take a small block car....turn it into a big block with a restamped motor and advertise matching numbers. You can make a huge profit. Not a nice thing to do but I think that is the reason.

staplehead

incorrect.it will always be a NOM.decking blocks and dishonesty have no place on the forum.BTW any seller worth their weight would gladly tell buyer.BUYER BEWARE do your home work.broche marks will tell the tale

theblackvette

I understand where you are coming from. But, stuff like this should be discussed on the forum. Do you know how many forum members have been spared getting scammed by con artists just by getting in the know about restamps from reading on the forum?

You are right about BUYER BEWARE but it should be discussed.

BBCorv70

I tend to agree but this is the way the market evolved. To some, the numbers represent greater value, market value, better kept, better quality, less likely to have been abused. This was probably a safer indicator of originality and overall condition before restampers came along or people began to save blocks which would have been discarded, wanting to save the numbers. But.... the market still places greater value on a numbers matching block.

I've never heard of major value being placed on a date correct windshield, expansion tank, or other.

Funny you mention this. There was a C2 on the board a while back, exactly the scenario you describe, burnt to the ground. The seller was looking for something around $10K because the numbers matched. Assumption was someone could take a NOM and transform it into numbers matching by either transferring the ID tag, block, etc, or use the burnt chassis as a base to rebuild the car.

dtamustang

BB you are correct.......its the way the market has evolved. numbers and "date code " correct are the most important thing to a lot of people.
it just seems to me that almost everything you could want to have reproduced is being reproduced , with "correct " numbers. all of which is blessed by the numbers guys but they draw the line at a "forged " engine stamp.
its not that I don't understand the motivation , I just find it a bit hypocritical

Mike Ward

I can't believe this thread is still going and there's still no hard and fast rule about the definition of 'numbers matching', but......


Let me ask a question- who are these numbers guys that do the blessings?

joewill

so its what the market will bear.. stampers don't have to be crooks, just providing a service, just like the windshield providers. there are exhaust manifolds on the market, cast with the supposed correct tooling with correct dates cast in.

each and every part that you may find will help incrementally in making your car more correct and therefore to that few more people, worth more. some parts are detectable, some are not, some are actually original to a similar dated car and therefor would be correct for your car.

also.. we see lots of examples of poor restamps on wrong dated parts, or even good restamps on wrong dated parts.

keep in mind that scenarios exist where a blank pad is in fact the original engine, or a badly restamped engine is still in fact the original engine. one should not assume that a bad restamp is always a replacement engine. only after more diligence is done can one increase his faith that the supposed part is in fact original to the car. the problem is that the novices do not do this extra diligence and them blame the seller, who may not know either as parts may have been replaced or restamped several owners before him..

I know, it happened to me both buying and selling when I was more of a novice.

ncrs has reduced the hit points wise by minimizing the hit on restamps, or staying out of the big debate, at least trying to keep the hobby from crashing and burning. Bloomington gold has not, in which you better know and declare ahead of time your restamp or kiss your 500$ goodbye. PLus BG now has their 3 tiers of survivor, further bastardizing the award.. but we need this to keep the hobby going.

the point is, if you are a buyer, you better know your requirements and confirm the car meets your requirements or pain and grief will follow you.. whether you are looking for numbers, or just a good nice car in good condition.

still, most buyers when they see numbers matching in an Ad, assume the owner is declaring some degree of originality. to the knowledgable, this means nothing.

dtamustang

Maybe "blessed" was the wrong term to use ..........I should have said , an acceptable practice.
I agree its hard to believe this is still going on , and I regret voicing my opinion as some of us have been down this road before.

the #s on my title match the vin tag..........those are the only #s that matter to me so that's my definition

Mike Ward

OK, so who is the group that says it's an acceptable practice?

Easy Mike

Wouldn't that be the ones doing the blessings?

dtamustang

most of the vendors offer reproduced date coded parts. they are just in the catalogs to take up space or for pretty pictures to look at.
I would also assume that all the #s matching cars at the shows , judging events and tv auctions are all pristine examples of unmolested barn finds that required just a quick wash and wax to be that nice. no repop parts on any of those.

I guess you guys are right and nobody puts anything on their cars that it didn't leave the assembly line with , so I stand corrected .....it is not " accepted practice " or "blessed".

the next time I see any repop date coded parts I will assume the seller is just targeting the rubes who are new to the hobby and don't know how things are done in the corvette universe.

Mike Ward

I'd rather have a good looking repro part than something out of a JC Whitney catalogue or no part at all, but there's a world of difference between installing a repro part and claiming it's 'all original'.

You inferred there was a group that blessed or accepted the practice of calling repros parts 'original' parts, but poo-poo engine restamps. I'm asking who this group might be.

dtamustang

the group is top secret and they have a password.....but the members are the guys who pay outrageous prices for the date coded repop parts....... you know ,the parts that nobody has ever had had in a show , judged ,run through an auction or tried to pawn off on an unsuspecting buyer.

if it is not an accepted practice why do the vendors offer those kinds of parts? who buys them and for what purpose?

PeteZO6

As I stated in a post above, #100, if or when the original aluminum radiator gives up the ghost after, say 50 or 60 years, I will attempt to replace it with an exact reproduction WITH THE CORRECT DATE TAG. Why? because I WANT to. To what purpose? If I want it, and have the money to obtain it, why not. It's my car and my money. What would you have me do, put in some ill fitting copper radiator from a different car? There is no excuse for doing that if I can get the proper part.

Why do vendors sell that kind of stuff? Because some of us will buy the stuff.

Note that I haven't said a word about trying to impress a potential buyer with an "original" Corvette. I just want to keep it like it was born, or as close as I can given the mods I have made.


Pete

Mike Ward

Simple. It's called restoration.

Do you object to that?

dtamustang

why isn't an engine block restamp a "restoration" ?

BBCorv70

Some call them restoration engines. I think the reason some object to this could be because somebody may try to pass of this 'restoration' engine as 'original'.

Mike Ward

Exactly.

theblackvette

And this same car can be called numbers matching as well.

dtamustang

and no one tries to pass off repop date coded parts as original ?

I don't have any problems with restorations or date coded parts that are new or used , I think its great that they are available to those who are interested in keeping their cars like original...... like I said many posts ago , I don't understand the line in the sand when it comes to restamps........it makes no sense to me why that is the only taboo. when you consider that every other part that makes up the entire car from the front bumper to the back bumper and everything in between , the only one off limits is the engine block.