Kicked in the gut...
05-05-2014, 11:28 AM
#1
8th Gear
Thread Starter
Member Since: Apr 2014
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kicked in the gut...
Well the story goes like this.
Bought a 70 LT-1 7 years ago. All original, every nut and bolt. Most of the top end is in a bin, not on the car. Car looks and drives great, its my baby. Damn proud of that car.
Buy a big ole RV to travel and part of that deal is to sell the 70. Makes sense to me.
Buyer comes over, really impressed with the car. Original windows and windshield even. All the parts are checked out and this is the guy I want to have the car. He has an appreciation for the LT-1.
I hand him a big ole book of past titles and info.
There, right there, in the middle of all this "stuff" it says "Second owner had block replaced under warranty. Bad cylinder bore causing use of oil".
You got to be kiddin me.
Yes it is stamped, just like factory.
Further we find a signed letter from the second owner saying it was a GM warranty replacement in 72.
But no matter what, this car is not original. Never can be.
Now the question is, what do you call it?
It is a LT-1, just has a replacement block.
I am thinking of selling the original top end separately, as what does it matter? Getting the right parts on a car with the right block seems more useful.
And no I will not represent the car without saying about the block. No one can tell, but it just ain't right.
Any thoughts?
Bought a 70 LT-1 7 years ago. All original, every nut and bolt. Most of the top end is in a bin, not on the car. Car looks and drives great, its my baby. Damn proud of that car.
Buy a big ole RV to travel and part of that deal is to sell the 70. Makes sense to me.
Buyer comes over, really impressed with the car. Original windows and windshield even. All the parts are checked out and this is the guy I want to have the car. He has an appreciation for the LT-1.
I hand him a big ole book of past titles and info.
There, right there, in the middle of all this "stuff" it says "Second owner had block replaced under warranty. Bad cylinder bore causing use of oil".
You got to be kiddin me.
Yes it is stamped, just like factory.
Further we find a signed letter from the second owner saying it was a GM warranty replacement in 72.
But no matter what, this car is not original. Never can be.
Now the question is, what do you call it?
It is a LT-1, just has a replacement block.
I am thinking of selling the original top end separately, as what does it matter? Getting the right parts on a car with the right block seems more useful.
And no I will not represent the car without saying about the block. No one can tell, but it just ain't right.
Any thoughts?
05-05-2014, 11:48 AM
#3
Nam Labrat
Member Since: Sep 2013
Location: New Orleans Loo-z-anna
Posts: 33,947
Received 4,213 Likes
on
2,763 Posts
Rookie suggeston: If you can't get a reasonable price for the car....don't sacrifice your Baby!
OR.....in other words................
If you can't get a reasonable price for the car....don't sacrifice your Baby for a big-fat-RV!
OR.....in other words................
If you can't get a reasonable price for the car....don't sacrifice your Baby for a big-fat-RV!
Last edited by doorgunner; 05-05-2014 at 03:43 PM.
05-05-2014, 01:01 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
It's stamped like an original block? I didn't think CE blocks got re-stamped, in 72 what would be the reason to re-stamp the block? It seems like some one was tring to hide the replacement block. And is that the block from 72? The question has been asked before is an Lt-1 without it's original engine still an LT-1? To me its just another NOM vette. Is a 350-350 car with a 305 still a 350-350?
05-05-2014, 01:05 PM
#5
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2000
Location: Southbound
Posts: 38,928
Likes: 0
Received 1,470 Likes
on
1,249 Posts
Cruise-In II Veteran
05-05-2014, 01:26 PM
#6
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2006
Location: Westminster Maryland
Posts: 30,173
Likes: 0
Received 2,878 Likes
on
2,515 Posts
Hi TM59
Have you checked to see how much of ALL the other parts on the original engine were moved to the ce block?
If EVERYTHING is still there you still have a nice 70 LT-! with a situation that lowers it's value a bit but makes it assessable to a larger audience because they don't have to tell as big a lie to their wife about what the car they're buying costs.
Regards,
Alan
I too would like to see the pad to see what this stamping job looks like.
Have you checked to see how much of ALL the other parts on the original engine were moved to the ce block?
If EVERYTHING is still there you still have a nice 70 LT-! with a situation that lowers it's value a bit but makes it assessable to a larger audience because they don't have to tell as big a lie to their wife about what the car they're buying costs.
Regards,
Alan
I too would like to see the pad to see what this stamping job looks like.
05-05-2014, 02:29 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
CE blocks are all stamped with their CE serial number.
A concern to some potential buyers would be the block casting date. For anyone interested in NCRS, a block with a date code AFTER the car's assembly does not work, which leads to a big fat 175-point deduction.
What is the casting number of the block and its casting date?
A concern to some potential buyers would be the block casting date. For anyone interested in NCRS, a block with a date code AFTER the car's assembly does not work, which leads to a big fat 175-point deduction.
What is the casting number of the block and its casting date?
05-05-2014, 03:04 PM
#8
Administrator
Member Since: Jul 2000
Location: About 1100 miles from where I call home. Blue lives matter.
Posts: 51,473
Received 5,358 Likes
on
2,786 Posts
Its neither original nor OEM. Its what you said it is, a former LT-1 with a replacement (NOM) block from the factory.
A seller should appreciate your honesty, good for you.
05-05-2014, 03:26 PM
#9
8th Gear
Thread Starter
Member Since: Apr 2014
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all the responses.
So the guy who repainted the car in 99 is the one who did all the research to find out about the block replacement.
I am guessing he saw the CE and knew something wasn't right.
Then he had it stamped with a May build date and all the right #'s on it.
I got that info with the car, (the big notebook I didn't read far enough into) but wasn't told about it and who knows, maybe the guy I bought it from didn't know either.
On one hand it is still a 350 LT-1, 370hp, 4 speed, blah, blah blah.
But on the other hand it isn't, and can never be "right".
The question is what good are the original top end parts to this car? Not much as far as I can see.
It's got to be like finding out the kid you raised for 18 years isn't yours.
Already bought the RV so the car is going somewhere.
I am just so bummed. And it isn't about the $ or the value.
And I would NEVER sell it now as a "original" car.
Bad Karma is a bitch.
So the guy who repainted the car in 99 is the one who did all the research to find out about the block replacement.
I am guessing he saw the CE and knew something wasn't right.
Then he had it stamped with a May build date and all the right #'s on it.
I got that info with the car, (the big notebook I didn't read far enough into) but wasn't told about it and who knows, maybe the guy I bought it from didn't know either.
On one hand it is still a 350 LT-1, 370hp, 4 speed, blah, blah blah.
But on the other hand it isn't, and can never be "right".
The question is what good are the original top end parts to this car? Not much as far as I can see.
It's got to be like finding out the kid you raised for 18 years isn't yours.
Already bought the RV so the car is going somewhere.
I am just so bummed. And it isn't about the $ or the value.
And I would NEVER sell it now as a "original" car.
Bad Karma is a bitch.
05-05-2014, 03:55 PM
#10
Nam Labrat
Member Since: Sep 2013
Location: New Orleans Loo-z-anna
Posts: 33,947
Received 4,213 Likes
on
2,763 Posts
Well......since you've already purchased the RV.....ask the price that you originally had in mind.
Then, being your honest self, if the other party is seriously interested (not a gawker or low-baller trying to snag a quick 'Flip")......show them the documentation and let them counter-offer....who knows---they may be a Corvette-lover, but not an NCRS purist.
I, for one would be proud to own it....but I have my 1968/69/72/78 project car
Then, being your honest self, if the other party is seriously interested (not a gawker or low-baller trying to snag a quick 'Flip")......show them the documentation and let them counter-offer....who knows---they may be a Corvette-lover, but not an NCRS purist.
I, for one would be proud to own it....but I have my 1968/69/72/78 project car
05-05-2014, 04:12 PM
#11
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2006
Location: Westminster Maryland
Posts: 30,173
Likes: 0
Received 2,878 Likes
on
2,515 Posts
Hi Tman,
I think it still is "right"!
It still left St.Louis as an LT-! optioned car.
What matters is how much of what made it an LT-! beside the cylinder case is still there.
No, it doesn't still have the original cylinder case, but that only matters when the engine is being judged for originality, and when a value for the car is being determined.
99 out 100 people at a car show won't know the difference, or care a single bit.
Many high-performance engines lost their cylinder cases… for me that fact in no way puts them in the category with counterfiet cars that have been made to appear to have their original engines.
Regards,
Alan
I think it still is "right"!
It still left St.Louis as an LT-! optioned car.
What matters is how much of what made it an LT-! beside the cylinder case is still there.
No, it doesn't still have the original cylinder case, but that only matters when the engine is being judged for originality, and when a value for the car is being determined.
99 out 100 people at a car show won't know the difference, or care a single bit.
Many high-performance engines lost their cylinder cases… for me that fact in no way puts them in the category with counterfiet cars that have been made to appear to have their original engines.
Regards,
Alan
Last edited by Alan 71; 05-05-2014 at 04:38 PM.
05-05-2014, 04:29 PM
#12
8th Gear
Thread Starter
Member Since: Apr 2014
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Tman,
I think it still is "right"!
It still left St.Louis as an LT-! optioned car.
What matters is how much of what made it an LT-! beside the cylinder case is still there.
No, it doesn't still have the original cylinder case, but that only matters when the engine is being judged for originality, and when a value for the car is being determined.
99 out 100 people at a car show won't know the difference, or care a single bit.
Many high-performance engines lost their cylinder cases… for me that fact in no way puts them in the category with counterfiet cars that have been to appear to have their original engines.
Regards,
Alan
I think it still is "right"!
It still left St.Louis as an LT-! optioned car.
What matters is how much of what made it an LT-! beside the cylinder case is still there.
No, it doesn't still have the original cylinder case, but that only matters when the engine is being judged for originality, and when a value for the car is being determined.
99 out 100 people at a car show won't know the difference, or care a single bit.
Many high-performance engines lost their cylinder cases… for me that fact in no way puts them in the category with counterfiet cars that have been to appear to have their original engines.
Regards,
Alan
There is no doubt it is an LT-1.
Every piece is there, except the block.....
05-05-2014, 06:53 PM
#13
Team Owner
The car was purchased new and it had a warranty repair. And, per GM requirements, it was repaired to "like new" condition with all the correct parts, yadda, yadda...
In that day, no one cared that it had a 'service' block. As long as it had all the correct factory parts and set-up, it was what it was.
Decades later, there is a prevalent belief that having ONLY the parts that originally came from the factory is justification for asking a much higher asking price for the car than if it has 'exact replacement' parts. Many folks think this is due to NCRS expectations. But, in reality, NCRS only cares if the parts LOOK like they came from the factory. That's what they judge on (as they have professed in this Forum many, many times).
So, from my point of view, you have exactly what you thought you owned: an original LT-1 car and drivetrain, the latter of which has been PROPERLY repaired and serviced by a GM associated dealership. In my book, that's "the real thing"....regardless of what others might think.
In that day, no one cared that it had a 'service' block. As long as it had all the correct factory parts and set-up, it was what it was.
Decades later, there is a prevalent belief that having ONLY the parts that originally came from the factory is justification for asking a much higher asking price for the car than if it has 'exact replacement' parts. Many folks think this is due to NCRS expectations. But, in reality, NCRS only cares if the parts LOOK like they came from the factory. That's what they judge on (as they have professed in this Forum many, many times).
So, from my point of view, you have exactly what you thought you owned: an original LT-1 car and drivetrain, the latter of which has been PROPERLY repaired and serviced by a GM associated dealership. In my book, that's "the real thing"....regardless of what others might think.
05-05-2014, 08:35 PM
#14
Race Director
The car was purchased new and it had a warranty repair. And, per GM requirements, it was repaired to "like new" condition with all the correct parts, yadda, yadda...
In that day, no one cared that it had a 'service' block. As long as it had all the correct factory parts and set-up, it was what it was.
Decades later, there is a prevalent belief that having ONLY the parts that originally came from the factory is justification for asking a much higher asking price for the car than if it has 'exact replacement' parts. Many folks think this is due to NCRS expectations. But, in reality, NCRS only cares if the parts LOOK like they came from the factory. That's what they judge on (as they have professed in this Forum many, many times).
So, from my point of view, you have exactly what you thought you owned: an original LT-1 car and drivetrain, the latter of which has been PROPERLY repaired and serviced by a GM associated dealership. In my book, that's "the real thing"....regardless of what others might think.
In that day, no one cared that it had a 'service' block. As long as it had all the correct factory parts and set-up, it was what it was.
Decades later, there is a prevalent belief that having ONLY the parts that originally came from the factory is justification for asking a much higher asking price for the car than if it has 'exact replacement' parts. Many folks think this is due to NCRS expectations. But, in reality, NCRS only cares if the parts LOOK like they came from the factory. That's what they judge on (as they have professed in this Forum many, many times).
So, from my point of view, you have exactly what you thought you owned: an original LT-1 car and drivetrain, the latter of which has been PROPERLY repaired and serviced by a GM associated dealership. In my book, that's "the real thing"....regardless of what others might think.
a MUCH better version of what I tried to say earlier
05-05-2014, 08:39 PM
#15
8th Gear
Thread Starter
Member Since: Apr 2014
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The car was purchased new and it had a warranty repair. And, per GM requirements, it was repaired to "like new" condition with all the correct parts, yadda, yadda...
In that day, no one cared that it had a 'service' block. As long as it had all the correct factory parts and set-up, it was what it was.
Decades later, there is a prevalent belief that having ONLY the parts that originally came from the factory is justification for asking a much higher asking price for the car than if it has 'exact replacement' parts. Many folks think this is due to NCRS expectations. But, in reality, NCRS only cares if the parts LOOK like they came from the factory. That's what they judge on (as they have professed in this Forum many, many times).
So, from my point of view, you have exactly what you thought you owned: an original LT-1 car and drivetrain, the latter of which has been PROPERLY repaired and serviced by a GM associated dealership. In my book, that's "the real thing"....regardless of what others might think.
In that day, no one cared that it had a 'service' block. As long as it had all the correct factory parts and set-up, it was what it was.
Decades later, there is a prevalent belief that having ONLY the parts that originally came from the factory is justification for asking a much higher asking price for the car than if it has 'exact replacement' parts. Many folks think this is due to NCRS expectations. But, in reality, NCRS only cares if the parts LOOK like they came from the factory. That's what they judge on (as they have professed in this Forum many, many times).
So, from my point of view, you have exactly what you thought you owned: an original LT-1 car and drivetrain, the latter of which has been PROPERLY repaired and serviced by a GM associated dealership. In my book, that's "the real thing"....regardless of what others might think.
Picture this, The fellow is just loving the car. All I keep hearing is "wow, thats correct. The windshield has the asi in the upper passenger side. Asto ventilation on the windows. I can't believe this is the car I have been looking for!" (I am thinking negotiations will be easy on my part lets just say). He keeps going on and on.
Then I hand him the notebook, and bam, somehow he turns right to to a page that reveals the block exchange.
Deal over.
I guess I would rather know now then have someone else, like him, feel the way I did at that moment.
I will re-advertise the car as presented, asking a bit less though.
Thanks for all your input, just had a real bad day yesterday.
And most people don't really understand someone whining about not having the correct block in their Corvette. Somehow to the average person, it sounds kind of petty.
05-06-2014, 08:52 AM
#16
Melting Slicks
7T1vette is right: NCRS only considers if the part "looks" original. Of course, this includes typical date codes and casting numbers. This means what it looks like when it left the factory, not after parts are replaced through warranty.
05-06-2014, 09:43 AM
#17
Melting Slicks
The car was purchased new and it had a warranty repair. And, per GM requirements, it was repaired to "like new" condition with all the correct parts, yadda, yadda...
In that day, no one cared that it had a 'service' block. As long as it had all the correct factory parts and set-up, it was what it was.
Decades later, there is a prevalent belief that having ONLY the parts that originally came from the factory is justification for asking a much higher asking price for the car than if it has 'exact replacement' parts. Many folks think this is due to NCRS expectations. But, in reality, NCRS only cares if the parts LOOK like they came from the factory. That's what they judge on (as they have professed in this Forum many, many times).
So, from my point of view, you have exactly what you thought you owned: an original LT-1 car and drivetrain, the latter of which has been PROPERLY repaired and serviced by a GM associated dealership. In my book, that's "the real thing"....regardless of what others might think.
In that day, no one cared that it had a 'service' block. As long as it had all the correct factory parts and set-up, it was what it was.
Decades later, there is a prevalent belief that having ONLY the parts that originally came from the factory is justification for asking a much higher asking price for the car than if it has 'exact replacement' parts. Many folks think this is due to NCRS expectations. But, in reality, NCRS only cares if the parts LOOK like they came from the factory. That's what they judge on (as they have professed in this Forum many, many times).
So, from my point of view, you have exactly what you thought you owned: an original LT-1 car and drivetrain, the latter of which has been PROPERLY repaired and serviced by a GM associated dealership. In my book, that's "the real thing"....regardless of what others might think.
I never agreed with those who are quick to assert the car is no longer an LT1, LS5, LS6, .... once the original engine block is gone. The way some are very quick to bash a NOM gets old, petty.
If the configuration of the car matches the specifications from the AIM for a particular option code, it is very much real, just not original. We could argue over whether the car is now a tribute (or clone). In this case having the documentation showing the block was replaced under warranty is something few others have, takes the car out of the 'clone' category. I agree it probably won't get the same price as an original, originals fetching a higher price because there are fewer of them around.
Sounds like a great driver, original LT1 car with a replacement block. Indistinguishable from one with the original block so far as appearance and performance go. Only the purists or those more concerned with what's it worth would notice or care about the replacement block.
IF NCRS judging is a goal, find a block with the correct casting number and date code which falls within the 6 months prior to the car being assembled. The deduction for irregular stamp pad is minor.
Price the car a bit below an original, see what offers you get.
05-06-2014, 10:14 AM
#18
Le Mans Master
How many cars are absolutely factory correct with what they left the factory back in 1970? Same fan belts? Same clutch? Stuff wears out and gets replaced. Alternators, water pumps, thermostats, clutches and even engines.
Sure, I could see the judging being very particular and if the engine block doesn't match, then deduct it. But if everything else is faithful to a fault, why kick the owner in the behind, value wise for the block being replaced?
Eventually, if any miles are put on the car, nearly everything is going to be replaced or repaired at one point or another (ask me, I know!). If the goal is to have a car that has less than five miles and still has the original tires on it, never to be driven, then I guess money and collectability are a more important precedent then joy of ownership and being able to drive it.
These cars must be a hoot to drive, but if driving them, means that you're stressing about what kind of wear and tear you might be inflicting on it, what does that say about the ownership experience?
Sure, I could see the judging being very particular and if the engine block doesn't match, then deduct it. But if everything else is faithful to a fault, why kick the owner in the behind, value wise for the block being replaced?
Eventually, if any miles are put on the car, nearly everything is going to be replaced or repaired at one point or another (ask me, I know!). If the goal is to have a car that has less than five miles and still has the original tires on it, never to be driven, then I guess money and collectability are a more important precedent then joy of ownership and being able to drive it.
These cars must be a hoot to drive, but if driving them, means that you're stressing about what kind of wear and tear you might be inflicting on it, what does that say about the ownership experience?
05-06-2014, 10:40 AM
#19
I hand him a big ole book of past titles and info.
There, right there, in the middle of all this "stuff" it says "Second owner had block replaced under warranty. Bad cylinder bore causing use of oil".
You got to be kiddin me.
Yes it is stamped, just like factory.
Further we find a signed letter from the second owner saying it was a GM warranty replacement in 72.
The vast majority of cars we see with CE engines have no documentation meaning that the engine could have come from a baffed out taxi or grannies station wagon.
