7T1vette

If the car doesn't have all the original 'hardware', it's a 'clone'. Configuration might be completely correct, but it didn't come from the factory with THAT hardware.

No big deal to most folks (including me). But, clones don't (and shouldn't) command as much money as the 'real thing'. That's really the issue in this discussion.

Many folks build a 'clone' car expecting to get nearly the same money for it that a "real" factory car would demand. There are those out there who choose to pay that, because it is so close to the real thing.

Well... to me, it either IS or it ISN"T...

Ironcross

and only a 1970, the rest {1 and 2} are not the good ones...they only carry the 1970`s reputation and maybe bragging rights at the local Cruises....but as far as power they stop with the 70

BBCorv70

Not really. It's a clone if it were converted, upgraded from a lesser model. If documentation exists to prove it's original configuration was an LT-1, it's a repaired LT-1. Not original, much like any other which had a blown engine which was replaced, not nearly as rare as unmolested originals. Without documentation, tough to prove it's not a clone. So far as what value it has to a buyer depends on current market conditions. Right now, collectors pay more for originals than others pay for drivers so yes, the originals command a higher price.

By your definition many numbers matching Corvettes would be clones. A lot of hardware has probably been replaced during restoration. Very few Corvettes have all their original parts, allowing for replacement of normal wear parts. Survivors?

I see this discussion being a matter of value being determined by whether it's original or not. It's still an LT-1 if it is configured as an LT-1 was, just not original, a NOM LT1. By 'legit', I gather we're referring to originality, not configuration. The market currently doesn't pay as much for a non original, agree, the seller cannot realistically ask for a price which an original sells for. Not in today's market.

I see an example of a clone being a Pontiac Tempest which was upgraded to a GTO. It was built as a Tempest, upgraded to a GTO. Collectors wouldn't be interested. The market would be to buyers wanting a GTO who don't care if it's original. Probably looking for a driver, not an investment. Strangely enough the clones in the steel body car market seem to sell for more than some original Corvettes.

kenpofan

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-g...-for-sale.html

Have at it...
1970 LT1 owner asking questions about value.
NOM .. trying to find it.. and not original color
LT-1 ??
IMHO no its a nice vette.. but look and decide.

7T1vette

You say "TO-MAY-TO"; I say "TO-MAH-TO"...

We just have different perspectives of what is "legitimate" and what is not.

kenpofan

From the link above :
" This car is not numbers matching. This is the only missing piece to return this car to numbers matching status. If the engine pictured below could be found and rebuilt, it could increase the value of this car. Numbers matching LT1s in this condition are being priced at $40,000 to $50,000. Fully restored condition LT1s are currently listed at $60,000 to $90,000."



Come on folks this is a perfect example of what we run into..
Is it or is it not an LT-1

LS4 PILOT

Buy 72 and up .Ripley,

it's the only way to be sure.




True optional motor cars their factory components are still bringing good or great money..... if all the right evidence is there. If not , those pre-vin ID 'd motor cars can be what ever your heart or wallet desires.


If you can't prove the car was delivered as a rare car , what good is that, just get a stamped block and make what you want .......seen nearly 10 396 corvettes ...made up this way.....and sure all the owners are sure TheIr car are the real deal......a lot of sad corvette owners out there if the truth could be know.......oh we'll....I saw it happening .....by 72 and up

BBCorv70

Collectors evaluate based on originality, 'legitimate' referring to whether the major components are original. In this case, no.

Others may evaluate based on specs, does it conform to the original configuration defined by the option package. With all parts typical of how they were manufactured when new, yes, it would be 'legit'. NCRS and Bloomington accept this with only a minor point deduction for irregular stamp pad.

As you say, it depends on your perspective.

keithinspace

I agree that an LT-1 can be AGAIN MADE an LT-1 with the addition of a correct engine. Without the LT-1 engine, it can't be legitimately sold as an LT-1.

This is totally different from an LT-1 clone that started out as a base Corvette and made to look like an LT-1 and sold as an LT-1. Unless it is clearly stated it is an LT-1 CLONE, the seller is without scruples in my book.

Likewise, the seller of a LT-1 car without the LT-1 engine and without qualification is scum.

A LT-1 car with a LT-1 engine (NOM or not) is an LT-1. It's just a question of value with regard to the fact that the engine is not original. And as previously stated, it is probably a smidge more likely in this car that the engine is NOT original than would be the case in a base Corvette.

LS4 PILOT

unfortunately block stamping is a growing industry

especially 67-69 302 engine for z28's....

late 70's the first gen C amaro Z 28's were sitting behind on inside of every redneck service station in the south with blown engines or no engines . I saw One out of maybe 100 late 60's Z28's back then I was sure had the original engine, most were long blown up, decked, put in boats or whatever suited the owners .

today nearly every Z28 from the 60's you see is 100 percent matching numbers .

this just can 't be .....

to me if this car with a total special motor is missing , that just kills the whole thing. it's just a camaro without its factory born block.

Might as well buy any old 60's camaro and build a 302 for it.

keithinspace

I'm NOT talking about block stamping.

I'm talking about a relatively date-correct CTU/CTB block that would have been original to an LT-1, a set of refurbished camel hump heads, forged crank, forged rods, TRW mini-dome pistons, solid lifters, THE RIGHT CAM PROFILE, Winter's intake, Holley 750, cool oil pan, and all the other items that made/make the engine special.

It is not absurd to think that the original engine has been "gone through" once, twice, three times, or even more in the life of the car.

Heck...I'd even take a new block that was cast to be similar to the original. 4 bolt mains and other items.

ANYTHING but a stamped block!

DeadStang

Uh, really? Kind of strong words there--this is my car we're talking about, and I certainly do not consider myself "scum."

Easy Mike

Would you pay a real LT-1 price for the car above?

The_Dude

I don't think that was directed at you.
"without qualification" meant "without disclosing that it's missing the original engine".

Rowdy Rat

Mike,

I wouldn't pay original engine money for an LT-1 without the original engine (but with documentation), but I would pay more than if it was a base engine car with the same criteria.

For me, Chevrolet decided long ago what these cars were (and are). The fact that they are missing parts from when they were new doesn't change that.

There are certain Corvettes that I would overlook a missing original engine (an L-88 comes to mind) if I were in the market for one, but as it is, I generally buy cars with original drivelines, docs, and traceable ownership history. My tradeoff is that in order to get those things, I have to buy projects... I don't have the bucks to go out and buy one already done.

Regards,

Stan

roadbike56

Read this thread with great interest. Back in the day, I was really into the LT-1 conversion, but not to resell the car for more money, I just wanted an LT-1 without trading cars, (althought used LT-1s were selling for $4000 back then). My comment is, not only is the engine different but the tach, interior HP plate and anti-sway bars were different. While the conversions I saw got the tach and HP plate correct, they frequently forgot about the anti-sway bars, particularly the rear bar.

BBCorv70

It strikes me as absurd to say the option package the car was built with is no longer so once the original block is gone. If the owner replaces the engine with an identical copy of the engine it was shipped with, IMO it's the same car with a replacement block. I DO understand this puts the car into the category of being non original, not as rare as an unmolested original. Currently, people paying the highest prices are paying for originality, the original block is very important. The term 'not real' seems inappropriate, more accurately described as non original or NOM. To say it's not real suggests the car was made up or doesn't contain the parts which made it an LT-1. It suggests the car must be fundamentally inferior. The only way in which this would probably be so would be market value. I'm assuming we're talking about an LT-1 which has a replacement engine identical to the original.

The question of a CE block came up earlier. If an engine failed QA at the factory, the engine would be pulled and a replacement installed. I'd imagine this would be accepted as original? I'm not sure how we'd ever know. But, if the engine failed after shipping, during warantee, it's now fake, not real? Strange way this market has evolved.

An original with a replacement engine, same engine as the original, would be more desireable than a converted LT-1 with only some of the parts. My opinion. I see value above a base Corvette for people looking for a driver, interested in an LT-1 to drive, not just investment value. They are very different cars, base Corvette and LT-1, even if it's a NOM LT-1.

keithinspace

I sincerely did not mean to offend anyone. I apologize for the strong words.

Mr. The Dude is correct. My comments were directed at those that put a 1979 2-bolt truck engine with hydraulic lifters, the right valve covers, and mild cam into an LT-1 Corvette and sell it AS an LT-1 Corvette without disclosing the engine.

Or worse, LYING about the engine.

Or worse, RESTAMPING the engine.

Or worse, putting an LT-1 hood, tach, and underhood tid-bits (shielding, valve covers, etc.) in a REGULAR Corvette and lying about ALL of it.

If you're telling the truth about what your car is, my comment is absolutely NOT directed at you.

kenpofan

DeadStang

I guess I'm a little feisty. Sorry. I've been about as open as I could possibly be about my Corvette, IMO. The problem is, I LIKE the car... So when it gets dissed, it's like people calling your kid or your old lady ugly--it pisses you off, you know? I don't really want to sell it, but I seriously need to thin my herd as I only have so much time to drive (we get about 9 months of rain a year!) and too many cars to store and maintain properly.