Matching numbers?
07-18-2013, 03:50 PM
#61
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
New engines could fail at the engine assembly plant. If so, they were not shipped. At some point at the engine assembly plant, the dead ones were disassembled and all useable parts were recycled.
Engines which tested fine at the engine facility and which were shipped to St. Louis could fail at start up time on the assembly line. When this occurred, the dead one was pulled and another taken out of existing stock on hand at St. Louis. If the dead engine could not be repaired at St. Louis (Heavy Repair section), they were collected and eventually sent back to the engine plants.
A third scenario is also possible. The new engine tested fine at the engine plant, ran fine on the assembly line, ran fine for a while after being delivered to the new owner, then died. Warranty replacement (CE blocks).
See if you can scare up the Corvette Enthusiast magazine archives. John Hinckly did a couple of articles for them concerning small block manufacturing at Flint. Good reading.
Engines which tested fine at the engine facility and which were shipped to St. Louis could fail at start up time on the assembly line. When this occurred, the dead one was pulled and another taken out of existing stock on hand at St. Louis. If the dead engine could not be repaired at St. Louis (Heavy Repair section), they were collected and eventually sent back to the engine plants.
A third scenario is also possible. The new engine tested fine at the engine plant, ran fine on the assembly line, ran fine for a while after being delivered to the new owner, then died. Warranty replacement (CE blocks).
See if you can scare up the Corvette Enthusiast magazine archives. John Hinckly did a couple of articles for them concerning small block manufacturing at Flint. Good reading.
Last edited by BBCorv70; 07-18-2013 at 04:58 PM.
07-19-2013, 08:55 AM
#62
Instructor
I had an "in the wrapper" numbers matching 1961 Corvette, 52 years ago (it was brand new 
). I have a numbers matching but hardly original 1975 Corvette right now 
.
My '75 Corvette probably isn't the best example but unless it had less than a few hundred miles on the clock or had a meaningful history (it has neither
) numbers matching shouldn't make it more collectible/valuable than any other well taken care of '75 Corvette out there or any other interesting car for that matter. Buying a car should be based on weather you like the car or you don't. The most important numbers are the ones in the price 
Unless I wanted to own a static museum car or was looking to sell a car like the 'investment collectors' do hoping to turn a nice profit from a market segment (the originality gang) that we are told is large, well capitalized and very important - I've pretty much lost interest in playing the numbers matching game.
Sorry guys, but excluding the occasional rare 'barn find' the really valuable and important cars have already been found and preserved. All the other interesting cars, like mine, should be seen, heard, and driven until there is nothing left worth fixing. So what's really important? Condition and the desire to own.
I got tired of being just a caretaker of "valuable" cars years ago and found that these wonderful old lumps never failed to bring back fond memories of a time I can never go back to. That's not all (if you haven't noticed), they're fun to drive
. Jay Leno figured this out years ago. Hell, some of my valuable cars even got rained on once or twice !
I'm sure there will be those that disagree with me on the importance of 'numbers matching' but opinions are opinions
I'll take no offence 
Someone is going to have to take the fall (big money loss) to correct a runaway classic car market. I hope it's not you or me but it will happen.
Anyone interested in taking a swim in the 'Tank Sticker' pool?
RB
). I have a numbers matching but hardly original 1975 Corvette right now .My '75 Corvette probably isn't the best example but unless it had less than a few hundred miles on the clock or had a meaningful history (it has neither
) numbers matching shouldn't make it more collectible/valuable than any other well taken care of '75 Corvette out there or any other interesting car for that matter. Buying a car should be based on weather you like the car or you don't. The most important numbers are the ones in the price Unless I wanted to own a static museum car or was looking to sell a car like the 'investment collectors' do hoping to turn a nice profit from a market segment (the originality gang) that we are told is large, well capitalized and very important - I've pretty much lost interest in playing the numbers matching game.
Sorry guys, but excluding the occasional rare 'barn find' the really valuable and important cars have already been found and preserved. All the other interesting cars, like mine, should be seen, heard, and driven until there is nothing left worth fixing. So what's really important? Condition and the desire to own
.I got tired of being just a caretaker of "valuable" cars years ago and found that these wonderful old lumps never failed to bring back fond memories of a time I can never go back to. That's not all (if you haven't noticed), they're fun to drive
. Jay Leno figured this out years ago. Hell, some of my valuable cars even got rained on once or twice !I'm sure there will be those that disagree with me on the importance of 'numbers matching' but opinions are opinions
I'll take no offence Someone is going to have to take the fall (big money loss) to correct a runaway classic car market. I hope it's not you or me but it will happen.
Anyone interested in taking a swim in the 'Tank Sticker' pool?
RB
Last edited by Commodore; 07-21-2013 at 07:07 AM.
07-19-2013, 10:07 AM
#63
Drifting
That is the great separator in this case. I apologize for not scouring all threads and links, but I don't know the price being asked.
I'd totally agree with the principal, though. There are ~$10k drivers like mine, ~$20k cars that are really nice, ~$30k cars that are REALLY nice, then ~$60k cars that are incredible.
I'd expect a car with a couple hiccups in its history (mileage gaps, non-original major components, non-original color/interior, previous serious accident, etc.) but to be otherwise nearly flawless and correct to be the ~$30k variety. Cars with ANY flaw or lack of originality would go down from there. It's a freefall until the CONDITION of the car recovers the value.
I have a wicked-crazy engine going in my car, but the 4-speed is happy, the rubber is new, and it's pretty happy. Paint is 30 foot at best, non-original color, non-original interior, some dogleg rust. Once I put the engine in, I'd consider myself lucky to get $15k. $12k is probably realistic. With another $10k invested in paint, seats, frame repairs, and a few other tid-bits, I'd probably top out at $20k. Perfect, and stock-appearing (no flares, rims, 24k gold trim, etc.), but as non-original as I think you can get.
By your statement, it seems that this car is being offered as a 'top shelf' variety.
The story I told on Page 1 was intended to demonstrate that not ALL sellers misrepresent their vehicles and attempt to 'pull one over' on folks. There are good people out there selling cars with 'interesting' histories.
But the amount of proof necessary to demonstrate one thing or another is directly proportional to the amount of money changing hands. Totally agree.
I'd totally agree with the principal, though. There are ~$10k drivers like mine, ~$20k cars that are really nice, ~$30k cars that are REALLY nice, then ~$60k cars that are incredible.
I'd expect a car with a couple hiccups in its history (mileage gaps, non-original major components, non-original color/interior, previous serious accident, etc.) but to be otherwise nearly flawless and correct to be the ~$30k variety. Cars with ANY flaw or lack of originality would go down from there. It's a freefall until the CONDITION of the car recovers the value.
I have a wicked-crazy engine going in my car, but the 4-speed is happy, the rubber is new, and it's pretty happy. Paint is 30 foot at best, non-original color, non-original interior, some dogleg rust. Once I put the engine in, I'd consider myself lucky to get $15k. $12k is probably realistic. With another $10k invested in paint, seats, frame repairs, and a few other tid-bits, I'd probably top out at $20k. Perfect, and stock-appearing (no flares, rims, 24k gold trim, etc.), but as non-original as I think you can get.
By your statement, it seems that this car is being offered as a 'top shelf' variety.
The story I told on Page 1 was intended to demonstrate that not ALL sellers misrepresent their vehicles and attempt to 'pull one over' on folks. There are good people out there selling cars with 'interesting' histories.
But the amount of proof necessary to demonstrate one thing or another is directly proportional to the amount of money changing hands. Totally agree.
Last edited by keithinspace; 07-19-2013 at 10:14 AM.
07-19-2013, 10:45 AM
#64
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
That is the great separator in this case. I apologize for not scouring all threads and links, but I don't know the price being asked.
I'd totally agree with the principal, though. There are ~$10k drivers like mine, ~$20k cars that are really nice, ~$30k cars that are REALLY nice, then ~$60k cars that are incredible.
I'd expect a car with a couple hiccups in its history (mileage gaps, non-original major components, non-original color/interior, previous serious accident, etc.) but to be otherwise nearly flawless and correct to be the ~$30k variety. Cars with ANY flaw or lack of originality would go down from there. It's a freefall until the CONDITION of the car recovers the value.
I have a wicked-crazy engine going in my car, but the 4-speed is happy, the rubber is new, and it's pretty happy. Paint is 30 foot at best, non-original color, non-original interior, some dogleg rust. Once I put the engine in, I'd consider myself lucky to get $15k. $12k is probably realistic. With another $10k invested in paint, seats, frame repairs, and a few other tid-bits, I'd probably top out at $20k. Perfect, and stock-appearing (no flares, rims, 24k gold trim, etc.), but as non-original as I think you can get.
By your statement, it seems that this car is being offered as a 'top shelf' variety.
The story I told on Page 1 was intended to demonstrate that not ALL sellers misrepresent their vehicles and attempt to 'pull one over' on folks. There are good people out there selling cars with 'interesting' histories.
But the amount of proof necessary to demonstrate one thing or another is directly proportional to the amount of money changing hands. Totally agree.
I'd totally agree with the principal, though. There are ~$10k drivers like mine, ~$20k cars that are really nice, ~$30k cars that are REALLY nice, then ~$60k cars that are incredible.
I'd expect a car with a couple hiccups in its history (mileage gaps, non-original major components, non-original color/interior, previous serious accident, etc.) but to be otherwise nearly flawless and correct to be the ~$30k variety. Cars with ANY flaw or lack of originality would go down from there. It's a freefall until the CONDITION of the car recovers the value.
I have a wicked-crazy engine going in my car, but the 4-speed is happy, the rubber is new, and it's pretty happy. Paint is 30 foot at best, non-original color, non-original interior, some dogleg rust. Once I put the engine in, I'd consider myself lucky to get $15k. $12k is probably realistic. With another $10k invested in paint, seats, frame repairs, and a few other tid-bits, I'd probably top out at $20k. Perfect, and stock-appearing (no flares, rims, 24k gold trim, etc.), but as non-original as I think you can get.
By your statement, it seems that this car is being offered as a 'top shelf' variety.
The story I told on Page 1 was intended to demonstrate that not ALL sellers misrepresent their vehicles and attempt to 'pull one over' on folks. There are good people out there selling cars with 'interesting' histories.
But the amount of proof necessary to demonstrate one thing or another is directly proportional to the amount of money changing hands. Totally agree.
As a follow up, I heard from another forum member of another Corvette, same year, same situation, very close in serial number. A VERY similar story. This has me wondering if perhaps Chevrolet had a few engines which were reworked, installed in that time period. Once I heard of this similar scenario, another vehicle, serial number very close, I am beginning to think odds are better this may be legit. Still quite a story to tell when selling to the next buyer.. It's been an interesting discussion.
07-19-2013, 10:59 AM
#65
Drifting
On one hand, it would be a real shame for the seller to take a $30k hit simply because of an interesting but justified anomaly on a perfectly legit car. You can thank the restampers and unscrupulous sellers out there for that...makes for a skeptical market.
On the other hand, it is a real risk to the purchaser to have to continue justifying this difference for the car to preserve its perceived value.
No good answer, unfortunately. If you'd said $30k, I'd say it's almost a no-brainer. If you'd said $45k, it would seem like a stretch. $60k just doesn't leave a lot to the imagination, though. I'd pretty much require perfection or solid justification.
We have pretty good SPECULATIVE justification in this thread. Maybe that's enough. I'm not the one handing over that kind of money. My wife would probably wave me off of it. There are other cars without any questions available for that money. Shame for the seller to have this blip on the radar if it is an honest deal.
On the other hand, it is a real risk to the purchaser to have to continue justifying this difference for the car to preserve its perceived value.
No good answer, unfortunately. If you'd said $30k, I'd say it's almost a no-brainer. If you'd said $45k, it would seem like a stretch. $60k just doesn't leave a lot to the imagination, though. I'd pretty much require perfection or solid justification.
We have pretty good SPECULATIVE justification in this thread. Maybe that's enough. I'm not the one handing over that kind of money. My wife would probably wave me off of it. There are other cars without any questions available for that money. Shame for the seller to have this blip on the radar if it is an honest deal.