bobbarry

[QUOTE=81pilot;1574836427]A lot of advertised prices and purchase prices are coupled with ignorance, on the part of perhaps both the buyer and the seller.

I'd say something is truly "worth" a certain figure if the buyer would make the same purchase again, once he found out all the details about the flaws and expenses involved in making his car right.

Especially with a Corvette, there are so many things that may not be immediately apparent, but that can easily raise the cost of ownership of a car beyond what the buyer originally thought would be necessary. And given that it costs about the same amount to repair frame and birdcage rust, rebuild a suspension or drivetrain or properly paint the body of a '69 L-68 as it would a '79 L-48, then I can understand how a buyer of an "entry-level" Corvette can very quickly get upside-down on a purchase fueled by the surface-appearance of a car.

There are a number of good chrome-bumper base-motor cars out there in the $15k-$18k range; I think there are also a good number of not-nearly-as-good chrome-bumper base-motor cars that are being priced in that same range because on the surface they *look* as good as those other cars, and there are a bunch of big-block cars price in or slightly-above that range which may appeal to buyers looking at small-block cars in that price range, who think they might be able to "move up" to a big-block car for apparently only a little more money, but who end up spending as much, if not more, as they would if they had gone for a good-condition big-block in the first-place.

10caipirinhas

"Hello......I am the seller of this beautiful Corvette.....my name is Mr. Denial of Reality......it's nice to meet you, what is your name ?"

"I am interested in buying your Corvette, my name is Mr. Due Diligence......it's nice to meet you too......."



IMHO the truly exceptional, original, and collectible cars that really need nothing (<$1000 of repairs and/or past NCRS designations) start trading at $30K +/-.......and that comment is based on what I have seen offered for sale by members here (as well as cars that have actually sold) since November when I joined the forum. Just one opinion of many.......and FWIW when I joined here I had a "guesstimated" benchmark of $20K for that kind of car........but have found that it is actually higher......but still within reality for my wallet.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the cars that are priced below that figure.....as long as you know what takes to correct the deficiencies, in order to get to the aforementioned level (exceptional, original, and collectible) in dollar terms, and can do basic math. In many ways......the C3 market is a lot like and mirrors the lower end Ferrari and Porsche marketplace (for example......1976-1982 Ferrari 308 and 1974-1989 911).......$15-35K to buy one........cars that can easily need $5-25K of repairs........and you have to look at 15 to find 1 that's worthy of writing the purchase cheque, relative to what needs to be done to make it whole. What Stan is saying is that the overwhelming vast majority of those cars he has inspected do not meet that mathematical criteria.......and the name on the title is Mr. Denial of Reality.

And it does not help matters when a brand new C6 can be bought for $53K CDN + tax where I live........

pewter-FRC

i look at c3's every night on ebay. you want a realization of the market, go take a look at what sold. some are dealers and dreamers who are priced way over value, theres also alot of overpriced junk too. very few cars on there and on here for that matter are worth the asking price. wake up people these cars arent midyears

0Road-Race Vette

Look, Loving these C3's and also being an owner my self, I want these cars to be worth a TON of $$$.

The point of this thread is that I am seeing a lot of cars that are NOT worth anywhere near what the asking price is considering how much work they need, or considering the type of repair work that was done to them previously.

Derrick Reynolds

All I have to say is that LS5s are the new L-88s, so my car is worth $500,000. You can pay me now, or pay me later.

Rickman

Stan,
I will put my 72 Red/Red Matching #'s LS5 AT Coupe up against any $18k range car, with the possible exception of Glenn's!

I am currently preparing this car for sale at Carlisle, as I have gotten too busy for 2 Vettes with my medical products business. As a small business owner in cardiovascular medicine, I have bought and sold capital equipment for years. The key is being realistic about the market and looking at the situation from both a buyer and seller's perspective.

Applying that to my 72, the strong points are the matching #'s, and the original colors, 973 Mille Miglia red paint and 407 red vinyl interior, and very little or no rust. The other selling point is the work that my ASE mechanic brother and Corvette Haven, Baltimore, MD have performed to make this a safe and reliable performer over the last 5 years.

On the minus side, I have no Build Sheet, Protecto Plate, A.I.R., or wiper door. Clock works, but windshield wipers don't (who drives their C3 in the rain?) Replacement front end and red paint look good.

For these (minus) reasons I will probably not be offering this car for sale here on CF. Seeing Members cut down my car on a C3 General "What's Rickman's 72 worth?" thread because of wrong carb, wrong hood, etc. would drive me bananas!! It's a driver, and a nice one! Face it, finding a decent 72 red, matching #'s LS5 with a no-hit body for less than $25k is harder than finding Obama's birth certificate!

Escept for newbies, C3 owners know how much $$ it takes to get these cars right. For example, I just had my Speedo & Tach restored by Rick's Restorations in Joppa, MD. Add in a new Lower Left Dash and I am up to $800 for one piece!

Needless to say (but I will), should any CF Member know anyone interested in my car, please pm me. Maybe I can still get it sold before Carlisle.

Stan, sorry to be so long-winded here, but I wanted to show that there are good examples of reasonably priced cars out there. I agree, one can come across some mediocre cars in this price range. I commend you and your shop for the great work you do. As a businessman, your reputation is on the line with the cars that you recommend for your customers. That is also the way I feel about my 72. I want my buyer to get good value in a car that will perform well for years, even though I will be taking a hit.

Rickman

GD70

[QUOTE=Road-Race Vette;1574835964]When the time comes to get the next vette, after my college obligations are done, you'll certainly be hearing from me if the vette is in your area.
Glenn

0Road-Race Vette

You bring up a very important point, not previously mentioned.

Every Steel bumper C3 is not equal. Some will always be worth more than others because of engine options, vert. vs. coupe etc....


For example a numbers matching big block convertible in rough shape, may be ultimately worth more than a non- matching small block coupe in good shape.


Again, all I am talking about is poorly hashed over cars, that people are trying to get top $$$ for. And yes, I agree that there are reasonably priced nice cars out there.

Faster Rat

I think we all agree. I am (or at least used to be) a real estate appraiser and would like to offer this analogy:

The real estate market is way down in most areas of the country. We appraisers value most residential property using comparable sales. The cost approach can be used to confirm the value derived by sales comparison, but is probably not relevant. Say a house last sold for $300,000...before the market took a dive. If the lot used to be worth $100,000 and the house (the improvement) used to be worth $200,000...then the entire property was worth $300,000. If the market value went down 33% then the property is now worth $200,000 on the open market. It will still cost $200,000 to build the house, or more, so according to the cost approach, the lot is worth nothing. It obviously is worth something, but we depreciate it due to external (economic) obsolesence.

The same thing is apparently happening with collector cars. The creation cost (purchase price + improvements) is way more than the current market value. In some instances, particularly with cars of lesser inherent value, it appears to me that even if you pay little or nothing for a car... you might not get back all the money you end up spending on it, unless you plan on keeping it for a long, long time.

10caipirinhas

In a normal or declining market it usually always better (and cheaper) to buy an excellent car on day one, than make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If you are in a "bubble market" like was the case in 2003-2006 then obviously you can disregard this anecdote.....or where it is the case that you plan to deviate from the norm anyways and you are buying the car to modify it. I like the real estate analogy given above, except I would say that replacement cost also depreciates accordingly, as the cost of labor and material normally declines when asset values do......at least that is what has happened in our market.

bobbarry

I haven't seen any decline in the prices of replacement parts or good labor. I suppose there are people who would charge you a much lower labor-rate just to get some work, but those are likely people you wouldn't want working on your car in the first-place...

noonie

Being in S Florida and especially as an appraiser, you can appreciate how drastically a market can change.
But just as with these cars, most homeowners value their homes unrealistically. When a lending institution puts the limit on the value, it usually wakes people up thru necessity, not the case with these cars.
Maybe a requirement list should be published for these cars similar to what FHA has for their acceptance requirements on residential loans.
It would mean that cars would not have to be oem quality, just meet minimum requirements so comparable prices can be derived in a more scientific manner so to speak.

It all goes back to doing your homework and learning the market in this economy.

blckslvr79

Never fails to amaze me the number of members on this site willing to devalue their own hobby.

Also the number of members openly bashing "entry level" cars as if they are beneath you.



A car is only worth what the buyer is willing to spend. If a seller does not ask top price, how are they to know what someone is willing to spend? To those of you complaining of overpriced vettes on the market.....would you list your car for a low value?

Remember the more other's Vettes sell for, the more yours is worth. Support your hobby, quit bashing it. These are only cars, not investments.

vettebuyer6369

I know you love to say this stuff, usually in response to me. However, until you understand the meaning of some words, this conversation will continue to go around and around.

-claiming your $10,000 car is worth $10,000, not $20,000 is not "devaluing your hobby." What it is, is not living in make believe land and/or trying to artificially pump up numbers dreaming that all cars prices will rise if you say it enough times.

-the expression "entry level" is not bashing. Why is that so, so hard to understand? In a hobby when many cars are $30k, $40k, $50k.... cars that sell for $10,000 are "entry level." Why do you think that's bashing?

"Openly bashing?" "Beneath you?" Is English really that difficult?

Please cut and paste the open bashing and examples of something "beneath" someone in this thread.

blckslvr79

So we hit a sore spot here.
I mentioned no names, the fact that you jumped on the bandwagon of guilt I find interesting.

Who says the car is worth $10K? Maybe it's worth more? Maybe less? If the seller lists the car at $10K, maybe a buyer would be willing to spend $11K or 12K or $15k? The price examples are not my point. Doesn't matter if the car in question is a $4000 parts car, a $10K "entry level c3", a precious '69 rusted bumper, or a museum piece C2. If the seller lists the car low, he may be missing out on additional dollars. By selling the car below what a buyer is willing to spend is.....devaluing the car and our hobby. Why you do not understand this is beyond me.

Your condescending attitude is an example of "bashing".

I'd guess that 99.5% of the membes on this site have a Vette of some kind in their possession. We are all here for that reason. Go to any other automotive website...Mopar, Ford, Camaro, Chevelle....none of them are continually posting how "over priced" their toys are or how they believe other's cars are worth squat. If Vettes are listed and selling for higher and higher prices, then good for us. With out higher asking prices, you can't get higher sale prices and cannot get higher values. Why do higher list prices and/or increasing values scare so many of you out there? Isn't that what some of you bought? "Investments"? Or is it that your afraid the lower valued cars may increase in value while your precious car in your garage, bought during a bubble, is losing value?

Frogday

A good example of this is the 1976 earlier in this thread that was purchased for $15k and was appraised at $40k. When it comes time to sell, listing at $35k should be a good deal since it was appraised for $40k...but that car will sit forever because its actual value is likely right around the price it was purchased for.

Faster Rat

The principle of substitution is the basis for market value. Why would anybody pay more for any particular car than they can buy another similar car for? It is that simple. The overall economy and it's effect on desperate sellers is driving the market down. Knowledgeable buyers are only taking advantage of it. Why pay a bunch of money for a car that needs a lot of work, when you can buy another one already done for just a little more? A bunch of us sitting around the garage, drinking beer and talking optimistically about the direction of the collector car hobby isn't going to change anything. What we do have going for us is the fact they are not making any more C3s, there are less of them every year and the world population is expanding.

whitehause

My wife has a 68 Sb matching #(Yes matching down to the distributor tag, not just motor) Now being a base Sb, auto, coupe, that will take some of the value away.(even though 1/2 as many coupes were made in 68) Pb,PS,PW, and rear defog bring it up a bit. I feel the originality gives this car an edge on almost any NOM car with the exception of the rarer BB's. I have a NOM BB 68 L71 with body mods that I feel is probably worth less than this car even though it's in better overall shape. General condition is a big factor, but originality plays a huge role in the price of these cars. The guy with a very nice NOM with no options can never hope to get what an original car with a number of options can get, even in marginal condition. I could never understand how people can let these cars become "unsafe" as Vettebuyer says. It really isn't all that expensive to keep them safe and running well. Perfect chrome, perfect paint, perfect interior.....now we're spending

Paul L

OK, a comment. We in Canada have been blessed with a fairly robust economy since and despite the 2008 dump. So many of the market arguments expressed do not have relevance here. I would not try to sell my car into the USA this summer. In Canada, yes.

JW3101

I think most of the 'Vettes that are overpriced which are selling (probably not many) sell due to uneducated buyers.

I didn't know much about C3's (still don't know as much as most of the C3 forum members) - but I researched them by reading the forums, asking questions, surfing the web, buying books, etc.

I didn't pay too much for mine because I researched it and had it thoroughly checked out by several people familiar with them.

I don't agree with asking an unreasonable price for a car - but, the buyers have to accept responsibility if they paid too much. There are reasonably priced Corvettes out there (some on this forum).

If you're looking to buy, you have to be patient and sort out the cars, take a look at the ones you're interested in and if the seller doesn't accept your final offer - walk away. There will always be another.