arkus

According to Proteam and Bloomington Gold .. To re stamp an engine is OK just as long as its done exactly like GM did it and the engine is the correct one for the car , they call it restoration. However you cant change what the car is by re stamping , meaning if the car was originally a 67 390 hp you must re stamp it to be a 67 390 hp. Re stamping it to be anything else is fraud/counterfeit.
Its right there on proteams web site.
My personal opinion is that its wrong to re stamp an engine..

Red 71

"according to Proteam and Bloomington Gold"!!!! Is this proclamation by these two now the industry standard? Does it apply to Chevelles and Novas also. I guess this way you can just say "numbers matching" and do not have to be completely honest. But, I guess you are legally safe since many feel that the above two are actually ordained. Now I can understand a legit restamp if you get a block decked and you lose the original stamp.

I can understand Proteam liking the idea.

The seller can just say "numbers matching" and not get into the details. Just plant the seed. No need to clarify the statement. If the customer should happen to read too much into the statement, oh well!! Buyer beware.

Wait a minute, I just remembered, the seller is basically a Used car Salesman! Now I understand!

vettebuyer6369

Obviously quoting a seller like Pro Team is ridiculous. And, I'm not sure exactly what Bloomington Gold's position is on restamps, I'll have to look that up.

However, in the NCRS Judging Reference manual, regarding counterfeit vs restoration, they say:

(in their definition of restoration) [an example of restoration is] "... stamping a 435 block to conform to the date/serial number of the original 435 HP Corvette in which it is to be installed"

They do not consider block restoration as counterfeit as long as "the intent is to restore the car to its former or original state."

Clearly, NCRS is not the end-all, be-all, but obviously restamps are not looked upon as 100% wrong within the hobby. Your personal definitions of legal, right, should be/shouldn't be, may differ.

You can also refer to the 1000+ threads that have gone on and on regarding this subject already on this Forum.

I still stand behind the assumption that the OP's reason for starting this thread is about a personal bone to pick and not just protecting all those potential buyers.

I also maintain that "numbers matching" means only that, and if potential buyers mistakenly think that means "original, and verified by the seller and/or auction house" then they need to get some education before spending any of their money.

jr9170

Red 71

My whole point has to do with integrity. I am an old fart and as such remember the days when it seemed that people that were trying to work the angles were the exception.

To me, if someone is not willing to state exactly what they have done and why then they are probably trying to misrepresent their product in some way. That makes them a sleeze bag in my book. Your opinion may differ.

Though I did infer that Proteam likes the current restamp explanation, to their credit I do believe that they did state that the block in the "Last Stingray" was a restamp.

Auctions do explain what they are and are not responsible for as you explained and I did not disagree in any way.

The reason we need "buyer beware" is because of the type of people
I described above in paragraph 2.

Let me end with this, if any of you are selling cars or parts on this forum you are still a "used car/parts salesman". Used car salesman rank near lawyers* in some circles. If you have a good reputation it is because you earned it. If you get a bad reputation it is because you earned it!

* I do note that if and when I ever need a lawyer I will look for the most successful one I can find..... bet I beat someone to the expected reply!

I am done! Got to get back to evicting some tenants.

Possums that got into my attic!

IrishJoker

disagree:

If the engine had to be resurfaced - why not put the numbers back on the block? What's your beef? As long as it's the SAME engine that came out of the car and was rebuilt - no big deal - the shop just put something BACK on the engine they took off during resurfacing. In otherwords - they returned the engine to the owner with the Numbers on it just as they received it.
This numbers matching stuff doesn't mean anything anymore - anyone can "FAKE" it now-a-days.

CCrane65

My take on the restamping issue is this...if you restamp an engine to match the car it is going into what will you do if the original engine shows up someday?

IMHO the only time it would be acceptable to restamp and engine is if you have proof positive that the original engine is shelled. If it is in someone else's car there shouldn't be 2 engines with the same stamp on them.

My $.02.

cc

vett us all

Hit the nail on the head. I like corvettes, and really don't care about the 67 435 HP all # matching, that I smoked with a 72 vega with a buick 231 CI 4speed!

Red 71

Possums can wait for a minute. I agree with you Joker. The main thing is to explain why you restamped. Take a few pictures to show the rough block surface to verify that it is in fact the same block and you have established credibility. That is how real car people operate!!! Not this use all the correct non incriminating verbage crap.

IrishJoker

I agree, if the shop had to "Re-Stamp" my engine block after a resurfacing then here is what I would like to see for documentation from them:
1. Pictures of the block prior to resurfacing showing the numbers prior to them being ground off.
2. Pictures of the block after resurfacing.
3. Pictures of the block after re-stamping my original number.

Documentation - dated and signed by shop owner that my Block with Engine Number: XXXXXXXXX had to be resurfaced and consequently had to be re-stamped to original number.

I don't agree with taking another donor engine and re-stamping it with my original car's number. That is a bit under-handed but I can see certain circumstances where it would be authorized:

If you are restoring a car and your engine is toast and you replace it with a clone - then re-stamping to get the car back to "NUMBERS MATCHING" is acceptable as long as it is documented that you have a cloned engine re-stamped and you reveal this to all prospective buyers. But buyers also need to be educated on what "Numbers Matching" actually means. Some where along the line it has become synonymous with "ORIGINAL".

Ravine Speed

Somewhere along the line, it became valuable to have a numbers matching car/engine (which means a lot more than the 2 stamps on the engine pad) to be accurate, it should include all numbered/dated parts, which is what NCRS judging is all about.

If someone "restores" a Corvette back to its original state (not faking an L88 from a 350), including restamping a block that has an appropriate cast date, I don't think there's really anything wrong with that. It is really assembling appropriate parts to restore back to an original state, which is what the hobby is all about.

This process is expensive and if a car receives high points for originality, I'd say it was more valuable than one that did not have this painstaking and expensive process. Finding (and paying for) original/properly dated parts, including the block, reconditioning these parts and assembling them together is part of the "fun" and analytics of restoration.

Is there really any difference between a quality rebuild with an appropriate casted/dated restamp and the original engine? I don't think so.

When there's "counterfeiting" to make some sort of a clone is where the line should be drawn because that has nothing to do with restoration, it's just a fabrication.

CCrane65

You are ignoring the fact that just because a Corvette does not have the original engine any longer does not necessarily mean it does not still exist in another vehicle. It's not right to put a different stamp on an engine if you don't know what happened to the original.

cc

nutsy

i feel once the original #s are gone due to decking or whatever, there gone forever. no need to restamp and explain to others what happened. just leave it blank and explain why and have pics for proof. to me restamping is like getting hair transplants. everyone knows there not real.

Red 71

Or boob jobs!

CCrane65

nutsy

THAT TOO.

Ravine Speed

That's completely irrelevant to my point. If there is an engine running around that came from car that has been restored how does that have any bearing on the restoration?

The resto is still accurate regardless of the original motor slogging an old Impala along...or sitting in some junkyard in Mississippi.

Would you say that the restoration of a Corvette was no good if it had a replacement rebuilt TI system if the original TI was igniting some other Corvette? I doubt it.

An accurate, and valuable restoration has nothing to do with what happened to the replaced parts, including the engine.