Rookie's first attempt at a restoration...
08-01-2013, 04:25 PM
#2604
Drifting
You're right Jeremy, I am going to respond. If you want to make comments like the motor would blow up the first time you started it you better have facts to back it up. The only thing wrong with the engine is it got sand in it when transporting it from my shop to my warehouse. And the only reason it was moved was because you didn't want to pay for a residential pick-up. Even Ben will confirm that engine was spotless when it was in my shop. All it needed to to be dis-assembled, cleaned and re-assembled. Something any competent machine shop could do in one day.
For over three years I bought and stored parts for you, I made tools for you that I didn't charge any labor on, paid phone overcharges every month talking to you helping you out, spent my time locating and chasing parts for you. And I never asked for a penny. You insisted on paying paying $400 labor for building the engine and that was immediately returned when there was a problem.
I waited 21 hrs over three days at my warehouse waiting for your shipper that never called or showed up. I spent three more hours, when he did show up, unloading and reloading his trailer.
I spent two days building a shipping crate for all your body parts and then drove 140 miles to have everything loaded onto a truck. I listened for hours on end while you complained about your job and wanted to quit. I have done more for you than I have for my own family and this is how you say thank you. By getting it off your chest. I made one mistake that could have easily been resolved and you sound like I built you a pile of junk. A mistake that was made because you didn't want to pay a pick-up charge.
Not once have you mentioned any opinion from a professional engine builder. Your getting advice from a guy who just does body work and a person who, by everything you've told me, blows up his Ford everytime he runs it. Why? Because you didn't want to cause any friction between you, your boss, and your new best buddy.
Mike
For over three years I bought and stored parts for you, I made tools for you that I didn't charge any labor on, paid phone overcharges every month talking to you helping you out, spent my time locating and chasing parts for you. And I never asked for a penny. You insisted on paying paying $400 labor for building the engine and that was immediately returned when there was a problem.
I waited 21 hrs over three days at my warehouse waiting for your shipper that never called or showed up. I spent three more hours, when he did show up, unloading and reloading his trailer.
I spent two days building a shipping crate for all your body parts and then drove 140 miles to have everything loaded onto a truck. I listened for hours on end while you complained about your job and wanted to quit. I have done more for you than I have for my own family and this is how you say thank you. By getting it off your chest. I made one mistake that could have easily been resolved and you sound like I built you a pile of junk. A mistake that was made because you didn't want to pay a pick-up charge.
Not once have you mentioned any opinion from a professional engine builder. Your getting advice from a guy who just does body work and a person who, by everything you've told me, blows up his Ford everytime he runs it. Why? Because you didn't want to cause any friction between you, your boss, and your new best buddy.
Mike
08-01-2013, 06:25 PM
#2605
Intermediate
Member Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
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0 Posts
Not taking sides here.....
But why would a freshly rebuilt motor have sand in it???
Usually when an engine rebuild is completed I would expect it to be sealed up so no junk can get inside. Install oil pan, timing cover, valve covers, and intake manifold. Duct tape the top of the intake, distributor opening, exhaust ports and water pump and what ever else. I have even picked motors wrapped up in saran wrap from my machine shop.
But why would a freshly rebuilt motor have sand in it???
Usually when an engine rebuild is completed I would expect it to be sealed up so no junk can get inside. Install oil pan, timing cover, valve covers, and intake manifold. Duct tape the top of the intake, distributor opening, exhaust ports and water pump and what ever else. I have even picked motors wrapped up in saran wrap from my machine shop.
08-01-2013, 08:20 PM
#2608
08-01-2013, 08:54 PM
#2609
Drifting
Member Since: Jun 2011
Location: iowa city iowa
Posts: 1,540
Received 253 Likes
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139 Posts
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C3 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
I started reading this thread about two years ago when I decided I wanted to build a vette and have followed it since.
Since then I have seen first hand several friendships ruined over differences in a build. The saddest part is that in both cases after all they had been through, it happened at the end of the build.
In both cases it started when the customer did not appreciate how much the builder had done for them and trashed the builder. Most quality builders don't really advertise. Word of mouth is everything. Trashing them in a place that consists of their friends and customers is very upsetting not only on a personal, but a business level.
I don't know everything that happened between the two of you and that is why these things should not be aired out this way. But since you chose that route, I will just say this:
Cars are cars. Friends are friends. Both take a long time to build, and can bring a lifetime of enjoyment. Both can be wrecked with one bad decision. In the end it can be a lot easier to rebuild a car then a friendship.
Especially if you don't have any friends left to help you.
Since then I have seen first hand several friendships ruined over differences in a build. The saddest part is that in both cases after all they had been through, it happened at the end of the build.
In both cases it started when the customer did not appreciate how much the builder had done for them and trashed the builder. Most quality builders don't really advertise. Word of mouth is everything. Trashing them in a place that consists of their friends and customers is very upsetting not only on a personal, but a business level.
I don't know everything that happened between the two of you and that is why these things should not be aired out this way. But since you chose that route, I will just say this:
Cars are cars. Friends are friends. Both take a long time to build, and can bring a lifetime of enjoyment. Both can be wrecked with one bad decision. In the end it can be a lot easier to rebuild a car then a friendship.
Especially if you don't have any friends left to help you.
08-01-2013, 08:59 PM
#2610
Instructor
Member Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
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0 Posts
Mike's done a ton of great work for a lot on here, Jeremy has done a lot of great work judging from all the pictures.
Lets not get this thread locked hashing out the he said she said stuff...
This thread could be a how to guide for a restoration.
To help trend back on topic, Jeremy someone asked what kind of tires those were...
Lets not get this thread locked hashing out the he said she said stuff...
This thread could be a how to guide for a restoration.
To help trend back on topic, Jeremy someone asked what kind of tires those were...
08-01-2013, 09:00 PM
#2611
Le Mans Master
I started reading this thread about two years ago when I decided I wanted to build a vette and have followed it since.
Since then I have seen first hand several friendships ruined over differences in a build. The saddest part is that in both cases after all they had been through, it happened at the end of the build.
In both cases it started when the customer did not appreciate how much the builder had done for them and trashed the builder. Most quality builders don't really advertise. Word of mouth is everything. Trashing them in a place that consists of their friends and customers is very upsetting not only on a personal, but a business level.
I don't know everything that happened between the two of you and that is why these things should not be aired out this way. But since you chose that route, I will just say this:
Cars are cars. Friends are friends. Both take a long time to build, and can bring a lifetime of enjoyment. Both can be wrecked with one bad decision. In the end it can be a lot easier to rebuild a car then a friendship.
Especially if you don't have any friends left to help you.
Since then I have seen first hand several friendships ruined over differences in a build. The saddest part is that in both cases after all they had been through, it happened at the end of the build.
In both cases it started when the customer did not appreciate how much the builder had done for them and trashed the builder. Most quality builders don't really advertise. Word of mouth is everything. Trashing them in a place that consists of their friends and customers is very upsetting not only on a personal, but a business level.
I don't know everything that happened between the two of you and that is why these things should not be aired out this way. But since you chose that route, I will just say this:
Cars are cars. Friends are friends. Both take a long time to build, and can bring a lifetime of enjoyment. Both can be wrecked with one bad decision. In the end it can be a lot easier to rebuild a car then a friendship.
Especially if you don't have any friends left to help you.
08-01-2013, 09:05 PM
#2612
1969/1971/1976 Coupes
08-01-2013, 09:29 PM
#2613
:iagree
yes lets talk cars and go foward 
Mike's done a ton of great work for a lot on here, Jeremy has done a lot of great work judging from all the pictures.
Lets not get this thread locked hashing out the he said she said stuff...
This thread could be a how to guide for a restoration.
To help trend back on topic, Jeremy someone asked what kind of tires those were...
Lets not get this thread locked hashing out the he said she said stuff...
This thread could be a how to guide for a restoration.
To help trend back on topic, Jeremy someone asked what kind of tires those were...
yes lets talk cars and go foward
08-02-2013, 01:02 AM
#2614
Safety Car
Thread Starter
You're right Jeremy, I am going to respond. If you want to make comments like the motor would blow up the first time you started it you better have facts to back it up. The only thing wrong with the engine is it got sand in it when transporting it from my shop to my warehouse. And the only reason it was moved was because you didn't want to pay for a residential pick-up. Even Ben will confirm that engine was spotless when it was in my shop. All it needed to to be dis-assembled, cleaned and re-assembled. Something any competent machine shop could do in one day.
For over three years I bought and stored parts for you, I made tools for you that I didn't charge any labor on, paid phone overcharges every month talking to you helping you out, spent my time locating and chasing parts for you. And I never asked for a penny. You insisted on paying paying $400 labor for building the engine and that was immediately returned when there was a problem.
I waited 21 hrs over three days at my warehouse waiting for your shipper that never called or showed up. I spent three more hours, when he did show up, unloading and reloading his trailer.
I spent two days building a shipping crate for all your body parts and then drove 140 miles to have everything loaded onto a truck. I listened for hours on end while you complained about your job and wanted to quit. I have done more for you than I have for my own family and this is how you say thank you. By getting it off your chest. I made one mistake that could have easily been resolved and you sound like I built you a pile of junk. A mistake that was made because you didn't want to pay a pick-up charge.
Not once have you mentioned any opinion from a professional engine builder. Your getting advice from a guy who just does body work and a person who, by everything you've told me, blows up his Ford everytime he runs it. Why? Because you didn't want to cause any friction between you, your boss, and your new best buddy.
Mike
For over three years I bought and stored parts for you, I made tools for you that I didn't charge any labor on, paid phone overcharges every month talking to you helping you out, spent my time locating and chasing parts for you. And I never asked for a penny. You insisted on paying paying $400 labor for building the engine and that was immediately returned when there was a problem.
I waited 21 hrs over three days at my warehouse waiting for your shipper that never called or showed up. I spent three more hours, when he did show up, unloading and reloading his trailer.
I spent two days building a shipping crate for all your body parts and then drove 140 miles to have everything loaded onto a truck. I listened for hours on end while you complained about your job and wanted to quit. I have done more for you than I have for my own family and this is how you say thank you. By getting it off your chest. I made one mistake that could have easily been resolved and you sound like I built you a pile of junk. A mistake that was made because you didn't want to pay a pick-up charge.
Not once have you mentioned any opinion from a professional engine builder. Your getting advice from a guy who just does body work and a person who, by everything you've told me, blows up his Ford everytime he runs it. Why? Because you didn't want to cause any friction between you, your boss, and your new best buddy.
Mike
I'd first like to start off by thanking you, and this isn't being sarcastic, for everything you have done for me over the past couple of years. I've learned a ton from you, you've always answered my phone calls, took the time to make sure I understood things correctly...the whole 10 yards. I would have been lost without your guidance and it wouldn't have turned out the way it did. You took me into your home, and had me down in Dallas for a week, so I could learn from you. I have a lot of respect for you, as much as you don't think I do anymore. You even taught me how to deal with my last employer situation, which I asked you for advice on. I couldn't thank you enough for that. I quit that "job", and got a career at Alternative Restoration, which has changed my life. I couldn't be happier now. Byron is as much as a friend to me as he is a boss. The man is incredibly talented.
There were dozens of mistakes made, but I have enough respect that I am not going to post them. I personally went to the machine shop here in Calgary and talked directly to Jeremy Butler, who measured the crank and went through the engine again for me. So for you to say that I didn't get a professional opinion is incorrect.
We are finished with the engine, and I am finished with this debate. I got it off of my chest, which was not an easy decision to make. I received the engine in February, and didn't say a word about it till about a month ago. That's how long it took me to make the decision to make a post about it. I wish you the best of luck with your business.
To get back to the thread, yes, those tires are bfgoodrich kdw's.
08-02-2013, 01:51 AM
#2615
Drifting
Joe SS,
This will be the last comment I make about this situation because you asked a very good question.
The engine was not ready to be shipped. It was in my shop bagged up. I was done working for the night when I get a phone call that the shipper will be at my warehouse a 8 am. I have no hoist in my shop. A friend of mine came over and we lifted the engine off the stand and mounted to the dolley. Then we had to lift the engine into the back of my pick-up by hand in the alley. At the time I did not know there was loose sand in the bed. We are doing this in the dark after midnite. The engine was bagged. I also had to load two pallets of parts to take to the warehouse. The bag did not survive the trip. My main concern was to beat the rain. Unloaded the engine by hand and taped up all the openings in the dark. Drive back home, get less than 4 hours sleep and drive back to the warehouse to finish packaging all the other parts before 8 am. And I wait and wait and wait and no one shows up. Then I'm told he will be there early thursday. I miss one full day of work waiting for no one to show up. No phone call, nothing. Then I am told he will be there thursday afternoon. I wait from 1 pm till 8 pm and get a phone call saying he will be there 9am. I get there at 9 he shows up at noon and I have to help him unload his trailer. That's two and a half days work I missed.
If I was given even one full days' notice none of this would have happened. If I didn't have to do this in the middle of the night it wouldn't have happened.
Then Jeremy starts telling me everything that is wrong with the engine. The deck was cut too much and the pistons will hit the heads. The pistons are too tight in the cylinders. The poly locks are too tight. The cam will go flat in 10 minutes. Wrong valve springs. The crank journals aren't round. Someone explain to me how a flat top piston with a .016 deck and a .015 head gasket will hit the head. Some how these two guys convinced Jeremy that the engine had all these problems before it was even taken apart.
Wrong valve springs? 130# closed and 310# open on a Lunatl flat tappet cam. Why didn't I install a roller? Because I install roller cams in roller blocks. Perhaps the motor would have been finished earlier if there was money to buy parts with. This was a budget build as monies were available. I did not make a dime on the engine or any of the parts. I was not reimbursed for my expenses nor did I ask to be.
There were a lot of accusations made with no proof. Other than a couple of pics showing some grains of sand in the heads and on top of a few pistons. The engine had not been rotated so there was no scoring or damage. I am assuming the sand came from my truck The short block was built by the same man who built Ben's engine, Rebel Rob's engine, Zwede's engine, Ed69ray's engines, and countless others. Other than the stroke this is the same engine I built for GlenC3's vette that is still running strong 4 years later. Flat tappet cam and all. The block was align honed by Kim Barr racing engines whom also did the balancing, the crank was turned by Marty of Dallas. Eagle rods, SRP coated pistons, AFR 195 heads , arp bolts throughout, true roller timing chain, moly pushrods, SS roller rockers, L-82 oil pan and windage tray, melling oil pump with new pick-up screen, nothing was short-cutted. For what Jeremy paid for this engine, including if he had a real engine builder disassemble, clean, and reassemble it, it still cost him way less than to buy it himself. I called in a lot of favors building this engine under his terms and this is what happens.
Mike
This will be the last comment I make about this situation because you asked a very good question.
The engine was not ready to be shipped. It was in my shop bagged up. I was done working for the night when I get a phone call that the shipper will be at my warehouse a 8 am. I have no hoist in my shop. A friend of mine came over and we lifted the engine off the stand and mounted to the dolley. Then we had to lift the engine into the back of my pick-up by hand in the alley. At the time I did not know there was loose sand in the bed. We are doing this in the dark after midnite. The engine was bagged. I also had to load two pallets of parts to take to the warehouse. The bag did not survive the trip. My main concern was to beat the rain. Unloaded the engine by hand and taped up all the openings in the dark. Drive back home, get less than 4 hours sleep and drive back to the warehouse to finish packaging all the other parts before 8 am. And I wait and wait and wait and no one shows up. Then I'm told he will be there early thursday. I miss one full day of work waiting for no one to show up. No phone call, nothing. Then I am told he will be there thursday afternoon. I wait from 1 pm till 8 pm and get a phone call saying he will be there 9am. I get there at 9 he shows up at noon and I have to help him unload his trailer. That's two and a half days work I missed.
If I was given even one full days' notice none of this would have happened. If I didn't have to do this in the middle of the night it wouldn't have happened.
Then Jeremy starts telling me everything that is wrong with the engine. The deck was cut too much and the pistons will hit the heads. The pistons are too tight in the cylinders. The poly locks are too tight. The cam will go flat in 10 minutes. Wrong valve springs. The crank journals aren't round. Someone explain to me how a flat top piston with a .016 deck and a .015 head gasket will hit the head. Some how these two guys convinced Jeremy that the engine had all these problems before it was even taken apart.
Wrong valve springs? 130# closed and 310# open on a Lunatl flat tappet cam. Why didn't I install a roller? Because I install roller cams in roller blocks. Perhaps the motor would have been finished earlier if there was money to buy parts with. This was a budget build as monies were available. I did not make a dime on the engine or any of the parts. I was not reimbursed for my expenses nor did I ask to be.
There were a lot of accusations made with no proof. Other than a couple of pics showing some grains of sand in the heads and on top of a few pistons. The engine had not been rotated so there was no scoring or damage. I am assuming the sand came from my truck The short block was built by the same man who built Ben's engine, Rebel Rob's engine, Zwede's engine, Ed69ray's engines, and countless others. Other than the stroke this is the same engine I built for GlenC3's vette that is still running strong 4 years later. Flat tappet cam and all. The block was align honed by Kim Barr racing engines whom also did the balancing, the crank was turned by Marty of Dallas. Eagle rods, SRP coated pistons, AFR 195 heads , arp bolts throughout, true roller timing chain, moly pushrods, SS roller rockers, L-82 oil pan and windage tray, melling oil pump with new pick-up screen, nothing was short-cutted. For what Jeremy paid for this engine, including if he had a real engine builder disassemble, clean, and reassemble it, it still cost him way less than to buy it himself. I called in a lot of favors building this engine under his terms and this is what happens.
Mike
08-02-2013, 09:33 AM
#2616
I was gone over this thread from start to finish and it's a great thread to learn off of. I know Jeremy has taken many hours of his time to post the pictures and info and it's greatly appreciated. I've also seen how much help he has gotten by other members, the cost of this help is priceless.
I've made my living by turning wrenches for over 35 years. One of the most important things I've learned in those years is not to work on my friends cars unless they were there with me. I've found that friends want twice as much for half the price and it has cost me over the years. When someone asks me for more than advice now, I will tell them to bring the car over and I will advice them as THEY DO THE WORK. I have yet have someone take me up on this. If someone did, I would be more than happy to help.
I understand what tracdogg2 is saying because I've been on that side of the pond, and it's a stab in the heart. I also know there are two sides to the story, it's just that I've been in tracdogg2's shoes before.
I've made my living by turning wrenches for over 35 years. One of the most important things I've learned in those years is not to work on my friends cars unless they were there with me. I've found that friends want twice as much for half the price and it has cost me over the years. When someone asks me for more than advice now, I will tell them to bring the car over and I will advice them as THEY DO THE WORK. I have yet have someone take me up on this. If someone did, I would be more than happy to help.
I understand what tracdogg2 is saying because I've been on that side of the pond, and it's a stab in the heart. I also know there are two sides to the story, it's just that I've been in tracdogg2's shoes before.
08-02-2013, 04:29 PM
#2617
Advanced
I started reading this thread about two years ago when I decided I wanted to build a vette and have followed it since.
Since then I have seen first hand several friendships ruined over differences in a build. The saddest part is that in both cases after all they had been through, it happened at the end of the build.
In both cases it started when the customer did not appreciate how much the builder had done for them and trashed the builder. Most quality builders don't really advertise. Word of mouth is everything. Trashing them in a place that consists of their friends and customers is very upsetting not only on a personal, but a business level.
I don't know everything that happened between the two of you and that is why these things should not be aired out this way. But since you chose that route, I will just say this:
Cars are cars. Friends are friends. Both take a long time to build, and can bring a lifetime of enjoyment. Both can be wrecked with one bad decision. In the end it can be a lot easier to rebuild a car then a friendship.
Especially if you don't have any friends left to help you.
Since then I have seen first hand several friendships ruined over differences in a build. The saddest part is that in both cases after all they had been through, it happened at the end of the build.
In both cases it started when the customer did not appreciate how much the builder had done for them and trashed the builder. Most quality builders don't really advertise. Word of mouth is everything. Trashing them in a place that consists of their friends and customers is very upsetting not only on a personal, but a business level.
I don't know everything that happened between the two of you and that is why these things should not be aired out this way. But since you chose that route, I will just say this:
Cars are cars. Friends are friends. Both take a long time to build, and can bring a lifetime of enjoyment. Both can be wrecked with one bad decision. In the end it can be a lot easier to rebuild a car then a friendship.
Especially if you don't have any friends left to help you.
100% no matter how much you guys hash it out on here the viewers on CF will only have their opinions and only you 2 know what really happened. Let it lay and go on with your build Stinger. Who knows maybe you and Mike will rebuild your friendship but this is not the place! So what's going on whit the build Stinger?
Mark
08-03-2013, 09:21 AM
#2618
Safety Car
Thread Starter
It doesn't screw the ending at all! In fact, the ending will be that much better now that I have Byron and Rick's help.
08-03-2013, 12:44 PM
#2619
1969/1971/1976 Coupes
Jeremy,
What size are the rims and tires you just bought? I looked for KDW's on a few sites and couldn't locate the size I wanted. Yours look pretty close to the width I'm looking for. The sidewall height is just right for my taste and now seeing it in a picture helps a lot with regards to the look. Thanks brother.
Terry
What size are the rims and tires you just bought? I looked for KDW's on a few sites and couldn't locate the size I wanted. Yours look pretty close to the width I'm looking for. The sidewall height is just right for my taste and now seeing it in a picture helps a lot with regards to the look. Thanks brother.
Terry
08-03-2013, 05:53 PM
#2620
Advanced
Stinger I have to think to myself, what will you do when the next expert car guy comes along and tells you Byron and Rick did things the wrong way and you have been screwed. Will you just go public and announce how they misled you and screwed you out of money, and your friendship is now void? There are thousands of ways to do work on these cars and most of them will be correct but just carried out in a different way. I bet if your engine was taken to Hendrick Motorsports and dropped off it would be picked apart and a very large list of incorrect building practices would brought to your attention. Does this mean that Rick did things wrong? No it doesn't mean this at all, it just means Rick didn't build it the way Hendrick builds them. I think you need to go back and take a look at yourself and this thread. You have been placed on a silver platter on here with the help of a lot of great help including Mike, don't throw it away my friend.