Birdball

Guys- I painted my 66 coupe a couple of weeks back and while re-fitting the hood, I took a chunk out of the front edge . I now have to repaint the hood as the metallic base does not like to feather well (Milano Maroon). I shot 4 coats of color and 4 coats clear originally, and I have sanded back off most of the clear on the hood, but it is still not totally gone. I have a couple options:

1) keep sanding until almost all of the color is off and re- spray
2) stop sanding because my arms are about to fall off- DP50 over the hood and redo the 4 coats of color and clear, or
3) stop sanding, shoot 2 to 3 coats of color over what I have now (probably 1-2 coats of clear and 4 coats of color)

Note: I am re-spraying the entire car with about 3 more coats of clear due to orange peel issues...

My question is about the darkening of the base coat with more coats. I have painted several enamel paint jobs and the paint was very translucent and therfore would be darker or lighter with a different amount of coats on the panels

The BC/CC product doesnt really seem to get darker as I add coats of color, and I am wondering if I really need to re-seal with DP50 (light grey starting point) and start over or if the paint will still match if I add a couple of coats of color to what is already there??

Do you guys have any advice??

Thanks,
Matt

62fuelie

Red metallics can be very sensitive to the number of coats and are especially sensitive to variations in undercoats. Once you get the area where the chip was feathered out and reprimered, I wouldn't think you need to sand everything of the hood, but certainly sand down most of the clear buildup. If you are skilled at blending, you can probably only paint the affected area and then reclear the whole hood. If not, then you need to color coat the whole hood. I would try to get the approximate same coverage (#of coats) of color on the hood as the rest of the car, or you may find a shade darker or lighter. As you have noted, red metallics are very translucent.

GEM '62

You might try your question on autobodystore.com I have found it to be a great body and paint forum.

GCD1962

I'm not a painter, but from cars I've had done there is only one coat of BC, then the CC. I don't understand the need for additional coats.
Whatever. I recently took a big chip off the corner of the hood on one of my non-Corvettes. I had the BC, mixed a little in one of those disposible spray bottles. I then used a couple of products from Eastwood. One was the CC in an aerosal can. At first you see a lot of orange peel, then you very lightly spray another product that comes in the kit. It not only smooths out all the orange peel, but also blends it all in with the rest so you don't have to respray an entire area. I was impressed how well it worked. you can't tell at all it was touched up

Vipermike

The first thing you have to consider is how the finished result will look. If you paint the entire hood and it doesn't match perfectly then the repair will stick out like a sore thumb because the hood will be framed by a front end that is a different color. If you've ever seen a car driving down the road that has had just one door repainted and it doesn't perfectly match the rest of the car then you know what I'm talking about.

Now compare that to what the hood will look like if you just repair the chip itself and it's not a perfect match. In that case only one very small area of the hood will not match. It will probably stick out but hopefully won't be noticeable all the way across the parking lot.

Depending on the size of the chip I would start by trying to use a fine tipped brush to carefully dab paint into just the chipped area (don't let any spill over onto the good paint or clearcoat). After you have a suitable color match you can then use a brush to apply clear over the repair. Again you want to very lightly dab the clearcoat on instead of brushing it (if you brush it it will disturb the color coat and make the repair more noticeable). When you are finished you want the clear to look like a large drop of water that is just slightly higher than the surrounding clearcoat. Once that is dry you can then carefully color sand and buff the repair to get an almost perfect match. However, you have to be very careful not to sand through the clearcoat of the area immediately surrounding the repair.

If that doesn't work to your satisfaction then at least you have a smooth body surface to begin your next repair attempt, which should be to blend the repair. To do this you need to spray several light coats starting by spraying just the immediate repair and slowly expanding the spray area with each successive coat. With each new coat the edge of the spray area should be feathered. To get an invisible blend it is very important that once you start spraying the color coat you do not touch the hood again until after the clear coat has been applied and is dry. Feathering each coat leaves a very fine dust of color coat on the hood. This fine dusting helps to hide the blend area but will be wiped away if touched, ruining all of your hard work. When I worked at a paint shop we wouldn't even let anyone walk in or out of the paint booth until the clear was sprayed because the wind of the door opening would disturb the paint.

After all of this if you are not satisfied with the match you can always go back to sqaure one and repaint the whole hood. Think of it this way, if you start by painting the whole hood and then decide you're not satisfied with the results, it's too late to go back and just do a spot repair.


It's probably too late for this on your hood but for future reference:

In the past when I have knocked a chip out of a freshly painted car I have carefully superglued the chip back in place and then used a brush to apply a very light coat of clear over the top of the chip. After the clear dries I then very carefully color sand and buff the affected area. Using this method the chip completely disappears and I don't have any color match issues. Of course this assumes the chip came out in one piece and that you recovered it.

I know this was long winded but I hope it at least gave you some ideas on how to fix your problem.

aworks

If you are going to reclear the whole car then repair your chip. You may have to prime and block where the chip was or you will see the paint edge later on. Do not just prime with DP and spray color.DP is not a filling primer it is any epoxy primer for going over bare surfaces and is not meant to be sanded it is for wet over wet use. Then blend the primed area with color with the hood on the car so you are blending into the upper suround also. The base coat should cover fine. then clear the whole car. You will not see the repair if done right.

Birdball

Thanks for the tips guys!

I feathered out the chip and then built up the low spot with filler (it was too big to dab in with paint), sealed the small chip with DP50 and then air brushed in color to try and blend in the repair, but the color didn't look like it was going to blend in well- probably because the rest of the panel was under clear coat and I was spraying in base. I was worried that if I just cleared the panel after that, I would have a spot that stuck out like a sore thumb. Vipermike- thanks for the blending tip- I kept trying to blend and then wetsand with 1000 to feather it, but it sounds like I should have just left it!


I have now sanded most of the clear build up off of the panel to where I have broken through into the base in a couple of spots so the clear build up is mostly gone. The experts over at the autobodystore.com say that with a base/clear system like this, once you get total coverage with the base coat, it will not darken more. I will plan on shooting 2 coats of color back over the panel and then clear it about 4 coats. Sound about right?

GCD1962

Again I'm not a painter, but have had enough painting done by experts. They all say the dab and touch method is simply a stop gap meaure and not a real solution. I've also been told filling the depression with body putty, etc is a no-no and that the only correct way is to sand and feather it out.

The repair that I did on one of my cars had a metallic BC. The chip was about the size of a fingernail right on the edge of the hood where it was easy to see. I sanded it out feathering out about 4 to 5 inches. I primed it, sprayed the BC with a disposible aerasol bottle. I then sprayed the CC and finally the special stuff that made it all flow together with the existing BC/CC on the rest of the fender. It showed no spray lines and no additional sanding was needed. The end result is that it is undetectable - period!

I wouldn't fool with all the filling sanding, spraying, sanding, etc that has been suggested. This method is not only far less time consuming, but also has better results. Again, check Eastwoods catalog for the set-up (Costs about $35).

When BC/CC is done correctly there is no need for multiple BC and I really can't see a need for additional CC. No factor does this and I doubt few restoration shops would spray more than one coat each. Too many layers will make the paint too thick.

Vipermike

It depends on who is doing the work. If you use good quality paint and practice the method you can learn to do repairs that are very nearly invisible and only take about 10 minutes to do.


Basecoat paints usually require a couple of coats to get complete and even coverage, especially on darker colors. I usually spray two coats of clear but may spray three if I know I will be color sanding the car to get a really nice finish.

GCD1962

The BC done on my car was a metallic green and covered in one coat, but I guess everyone has their own method.

Your touch-up sounds good, but you say "nearly" un-noticable. The set up I used is undetectable. You seem to know paint. Why not try the Eastwood set-up and let us know what you think

Vipermike

I want to make sure that you understand when I was discussing blending the paint and I said, "With each new coat the edge of the spray area should be feathered." what I mean is when using the spray gun feather the spray pattern (very lightly fade it) and not feather sand the edge of each new coat of paint.


I think that is more clear than you need but you will have plenty there to color sand if you still plan to do that.

Even though the color coat looks different while sitting on top of your sanded clear coat, if the repair is done properly, once you spray clear over the entire hood, the repair will disappear and you will not see any difference between the old color coat and the new color coat.

Vipermike

I'm not familiar with the Eastwood product but I am familiar with the process. What you and I described (prior to the clearcoat) are more or less the same thing. After spraying the clearcoat you are then using a product from Eastwood that softens the clear and helps hide the edge where you stopped spraying. You can buy similar products from most automotive paint supply stores.

When spraying the clearcoat, if at all possible, I prefer to spray the entire panel as it guarantees I won't have any problems with the repair in the future. Of course on a car like the Corvette a panel sometimes turns out to be the whole front clip.

Birdball

Thanks for all the tips on this: I have decided to take the whole hood back down to the original DP50 sealer, and re-spray. The chip was about the size of a golf ball, and right in the front edge/middle of the hood, so it was not only big, but a very bad area to do a descrete repair.

I still have about a quart of paint left from the original paint job a few weeks back, so as long as I build up the same amount of coats, it should match perfectly.

OK- I will let you in on the truth on how I came to this decision....
I sanded the hood down to the color coat, and had the repair feathered in nicely, sanded with 800, and tried to respray tonight after work. Well, of course I was rushing and did not go back over the hood with 1000 -and in addition, I rushed the flash time between coats, so I ended up with sanding scratches showing up, the repair was not as smoothly evened out as possible so it still showed up as a low spot, and to top it off- a big fat run in the middle of the hood in 2 places. Oh yea- and the gun was not spraying perfect so I had a touch of metallic striping ! I need to step back, chill out, sand it down and do it right.

So I stopped and had a beer, laughed at my stupidity and lack of patience and decided to wait and do it right....

I will post some pictures hopefully this weekend of the properly fixed problem!

thanks again for all your help and advice,
Matt

Vipermike

What aworks said is exactly right. If you are going to clear the entire car again, start by prepping the car for the new clearcoat (I prefer to sand with 600 grit but some people just use scotchbrite). Once the whole car is prepped and the repair to the hood had been made, paint the hood and use the blending technique I discussed on the surround panel (the perfect place to blend your paint is at the crown of the fenders). Once you have blended the paint spray your entire car with clear. This will guarantee you a perfect repair that no one will ever be able to find, including yourself!

aworks

I have to ask. What are you sanding between coats? As I and Vipermike are tring to tell you, sand the whole car with 600 to 1000 sandpaper, put the hood on the car, spray color on the hood and the tops of the fenders and clear the car. You should lighty mask the tops of the fenders till you get enough paint on the hood to cover,then pull the mask paper off and lighty spray the surrounding area with color then clear. The blend of color will not be seen. There is no need to sand anything once you start painting. This is done every day in my shop and every other shop that dose collision work every day. Tring to touch up a spot that big with a small touchup gun will not work. Just do what we are telling you a your car will look fine. Let us know how you make out.

Birdball

Aworks- the car is sanded down with 1000 and ready to go. Unfortunately- I had already sanded most of the hood down to the base before I understood completely what you and Mike were telling me.... I used 220 to get most of it down, then 320, then 800, but apparently I rushed it and did not get all the 220 scratches out, so when I re-shot the hood last night, I had some bad scratches show through.

So bottom is that I am going to sand the hood again tonight, re-shoot color, and then clear the whole car and hood again this weekend. I will have to throw an extra coat or 2 on the hood, because the rest of car still has a good 2 coats of clear probably and the hood will be starting from base.

Now- any tips on shooting clear without orange peeling the crap out of it? I have an HVLP gun, and last time I was running 25PSI at the compressor, so I think the clear didn't atomize well. I have a 75ft. hose on there, so I think I need to run about 50 at the compressor. I bought a pressure gauge that hooks up at the gun, but it was junk and does not work right. I think once I get the pressure right, I should be good to go as long as I don't shoot too slow and get runs.

Man- no wonder professional paint jobs are expensive- this stuff is an art!!

Oh yea- forgot to say also that I had plenty of paint left over, so I am using the same paint that I did the original paint job with so at least I can rule mis-match out...

Vipermike

When doing spot repairs it is important that the first couple of coats of base coat be sprayed "dry". If not then the paint underneath might tend to "swell" causing the scratches to show through as you have described. Very minor swelling will be covered by the clear coat and can be color sanded out. The procedure I use when painting spot repairs is to apply two dry coats of paint followed by one or sometimes two wet coats, expanding the area covered with each coat as I described before.



Set the pressure at your gun.

Set the pressure while you are holding the spray trigger open.

Spray the clear thick enough so that it has just a very slight hint of orange peel immediately after the paint lands on the panel. If it doesn't flow out to a smooth surface within a few seconds then it is probably too thin of a coat. Any thicker than that and the paint is likely to run. Any thinner and it will probably have orange peel once it dries.

Practice!



Not necessarily. When spraying metallics there are many factors that affect how well the paint will match. Besides the mix of the paint, the amount of thinner, different gun settings, different spray pressures, different air temperatures, different atmoshperic conditions, and different spray techniques can all affect the shade of a metallic paint. The last time you painted your hood you proved to yourself that you can change the shade of paint as quickly as from one stroke to the next (tiger stripes - a very common problem that takes practice to avoid).

Birdball

Thanks for the advice Mike- When I re-shoot the clear on the car, do you recommend to dry spraying the first coat of clear as well to avoid 800 sand scratch swelling from the previous clear coat?

I also went a bought a better gauge for the gun last night. I had bought another one that didn't really work well, so hopefully I can get proper pressure finally at the gun. I will probably redo the car this weekend.

Vipermike

You shouldn't have a problem with the clear. The swelling is caused by the thinner in the base coat softening the dried base coat that is already on the car. The fresher the paint on the car is, the worse the swelling will be.