Solid327

I'm headed down to the International Auto Show this week in Detroit. There will be lots of new stuff to see including the C6. Many prototypes unveiled there have actually been built in recent years.

I got to thinking about the state of the industry this morning after listening to Rick Wagner of GM with Paul W Smith on WJR AM radio. GM hopes to gain market share with its many new product offerings, which they have been steadily losing over the years to the greater number choices available to consumers in the US. So does Chrysler and so does Ford. GM however, out of the domestics and I'm including Chrysler in that equation though they are not truly a domestic since being bought (merger of equals) by Daimler, is probably in the best shape finance and product wise going forward. Of the domestics, GM quality is the best in my opinion.

Our market is the richest car market in the world and there is no doubt it is coveted by every car builder in the world. Productivity is higher than ever before in manufacturing (doing more with less) and no doubt there is greater ability to supply our markets than there is demand, so the manufacturers will likely look elsewhere like China for growth. Foreign labels are looking to gain share in our truck markets.

From a product standpoint this may well be the gilded age of the automobile but the glory days when the Big Three ruled are no more. Does anyone care to look into the future and make any predictions?

mogulmike

Great minds think alike. I just posted, hope to see you at the auto show. Last year in bringing back the SS there was a 72 SS chevelle on display. Hope they have a classic vette to coinside with the C6.

waynec

Caught a quick glimpse of the show on TV a little while ago. They were showing a concept Saturn small wagon/RV resembling the 53 Nomad concept car, with the rounded front end and oval grill opening with grille bar & teeth like a 53 Vette. Nice!

Solid327

It looks like that car might actually get built, that's what I'm hearing anyway. I never could figure out Saturn. Imagine if GM had spent the same money revamping their other divisions that they spent launching Saturn. I believe that was Roger Smith's creation. He was a GM beancounter and NOT a car guy. GM is a business to make money BUT cars is what drives the bottom line. If the beancounters had their way the Corvette probably would've gotten killed around the same time Saturn was launched.

SWCDuke

Auto execs are upbeat about '04 with predictions of 17 million car/light truck sales, which would be a record.

GM has a strong product line and has made great strides in quality. Their problem will be convincing John Q Public that they really are making better cars with more value than many other makes.

Consumer perception of actual current build quality and value lags reality by about three years.

Duke

Daren Schneider

Add Saturn, Drop Oldsmobile. :skep: Makes tons of sense :bs . I know, I know, just in time inventory vs assembling everything in house. Saturn also killed GEO.

Lets bring back the ROGER Smith cars. Citation X-14, ,Cimarron (sp?),

mogulmike

I'm a GM guy through & through and I have to disagree with the quality of GM's new cars. I have a Olds Sillouette that the wife drives We bought it new in 2000 and recall, upon problem, upon recal of the recall. I have had more problems with the van (my first and only car I bought new) than any other vehical. My brother bought a '02 Monte Carlo SS, and had a lot of problems including a new tranny, I also had a tranny problem with the van. All of this has been covered by warrenty. My parents have a 98 Bravada that has had lots of problems along with their Grand-AM. My other brother had a Grand AM with problems but his Riveria 97 & 02 Z71 I, have not heard of any problems. The in-laws have a 94 saturn and liked the car so much they just bought the new L series saden. Their 94 also had a recall on the tranny. This is just a small sampling. My point is of all the cars I've ever had have all been GM- (67 Vette, 66 Vette, 89 Vette, 89 Camaro, 85 TA, 89 Grand-Am, 89 S-15, 82 Cutlass) I have never had the number of problems as with the new van and all of a sudden all the family members are having problems. My one brother with the Monte, just bought a second vehical, a Toyota Tundra instead of a GM truck because he had all the problems with the Monte. So I do not see the quality in GM products but I think their styling is the best of any automaker. my 2 cents


[Modified by mogulmike, 1:51 PM 1/6/2004]


[Modified by mogulmike, 4:46 PM 1/6/2004]

TheOman

My wife and I bought a new GM car ONCE. It was and likely will be the ONLY new GM car we will ever buy. We had been married only about a year and the cost (although not an ostentatious model) was a BIG deal for two just outta college kids with a first mortgage. We bought new expecting NO EXPENSES AND NO TRIPS THE THE SERVICE DEPT FOR A LONG TIME. Between the bad paint, bad transmission, poor body panel fit and the despicable treatment by the dealer service dept. I have never EVER even considered buying another new GM car. Since that experience all I do is smile when I hear about transmission failures, bad piston slap and all the other chronic problems GM can't or won't try to fix.

As for GM the company I have had some experience in the underlying thinking inside the company. I worked for a high tech company that was doing some computer consulting inside the GM tech center. Remember GM is in the cars business and they use computer power to build cars. While looking at joining the consulting team assigned to GM I asked some of the other guys already on the team "What is it like to work on this project inside the heart and soul of GM development". The answer was "Ya can't tell them anything you can't even politely show them a different way to approach a solution to a problem (remember this engagement was about COMPUTERS not about cars the consulting team was NOT there to tell them how to build cars) all they want is for us to "Do it their way. They behave as if ......"We are Fortune #1 how could you know anything about anything now step smartly and implement YOUR technology OUR way. After all we are Fortune #1" !

Never ever in all my years consulting for large corporations did I see such deep seated myopia. Bad enough if they were only that way about their cars and their cars were indeed the greatest...nope. Consider that their products are so so at best AND we were talking about computer technologies NOT their sweet spot which is supposed to be buildeing cars.

kyosho

I have owned nothing but GM products, front wheel drives, corvettes, trucks, and have really had nothing ever go wrong with any of them.

I currently have a 1987 Suburban, 1988 S10, and my 1967 Corvette. All are fantastic vehicles!!!

mogulmike

As a former EDS employee/GM contractor I can say Oman your right on the money. :thumbs:

TheOman

There is enugh inconsistency in the reports about GM products to make one wonder. I hate em...you apparently have been satisfied. I have friends who had been reloading transmissions on more than one car and they still buy GM. Beats me.

I thought the idea behind mass production was repeatable consistant quality and interchangeability. I must wonder how then can some customers like you be happy (and you should be happy if your experience has been as you report it) and others be so unhappy (and their experiences reinforce their unhappiness) I am sure

I am very tough to convince once I feel I have been screwed...I admit that. I felt screwed with that car I mentioned earlier and it is gonna take more than GM telling me things are betterto change my mind. Until some period goes by without class action suits, pan revirews from the trade rags and endless " GM won't fit it ", or "My GM car is junk' reports from customers I am not going to sit by and hope they are indeed getting better. I certainly will not vote yes on "advertised" quality improvements with my checkbook. then after quality is the styling that has been Oh so plain and bland for oh so long. I rent a lot of cars at airports. Once and a while I try something from GM. Almost without fail I am disappointed. They just seem so lame..

Worse yet is the ache in my stomach from the Service Dept. All the mumbo jumb about "getting the Zone Rep to look at this or that". I mean they behaved like the Zone that the guy was coming from was the Delta Quatrant from Voyager. Come on he is just some flunkie from a regional service office and likely he is at every dealer once a month. OOOOOOwwweeeee the White Knight from the "Z-O-N-E Office" Oooooowwww WOW. What is the big deal? The big deal was they did not want to fix it right, and / or they were caught between me and GM as far as gettin paid by me or GM to fix GM's goofs. Calling in the "Big Gun" from "The Zone Office" was just another stall / dodge /delay tactic to avoid having to make the problem right until someone agreed to PAY for the quality I expected and the quality I thought I had already paid for.


[Modified by TheOman, 11:59 AM 1/6/2004]

Solid327

Originally posted by Oman
I recently rented a new Deville and put nearly 2000 miles on it. I was very impressed with the car. Four persons on board, w/full trunk, it had lots of power, plenty of room, comfortable, OnStar and Sat radio, averaged nearly 22 MPG, city and highway combined.

Tim Allen did a modified version with some exhaust snort, different tires and wheels, bolstered seats and cleaner grill brow a couple of years ago. He said it draws crowds and plenty of attention in the valet line with the "brand horse" crowd. Watch the direction that GM is taking with Cadillac. The new Deville and Seville will be rear drive with powerful Northstar engine options. Ain't competition grand!

SMI-FST

I hope my recent experience with GM is not an indicator of there new "high" quality. My wife bought a 2003 MonteCarlo and at 73 miles the check engine light comes on and it is running really rough. The dealer diagnoses a bad fuel injector and replaces it but takes 2 trips to the dealer to get it repaired. When picking the car up the drivers seat is dirty and no one seams to give a s***t about the whole experience. I don't think my wife will ever own another chevy. I realize this could happen to any car but I also know my sister has a 5 year old Camry that has never seen the dealership since she drove it off the lot. I would never sell my 65 roadster as long as I'm strong enough to push the clutch in, but no more new Chevys in our garage.

hogan64

GM Service Departments are the #1 reason I will never buy another new GM product. "Service"...what a total joke..

First of all, rarely can they find the solution to your problem. They will fix things and grossly overcharge you, but rarely will this fix the actual problem you brought to them. After 2-3 trips they MIGHT find your problem and get it fixed, but this is after you have paid them twice for things that were not broken(them trying to find your problem). GM service Departments have no problem giving your car back WITHOUT the problem being fixed but still charging for the service work. Refuse to pay because they did not fix the problem, you don't get your car back.

This is all assuming the dealer did not break anything (on purpose) just to charge you to get it fixed. Many local news stories on this activity in Detroit. This has happened to me twice. I brought a camera and a lawyer to pick up my car the second time. Guess what. No bill and they fixed it for free. CROOKS !!

Do you think I like GM Service Departments? After spending over $12,000 in GM service Departments over the years, I think NOT

Kid_Again

IMHO, the quality race is over and the american manufacturers have lost...am i happy about that? no but i am a consumer and try to spend my money as wisely as possible

...i will also admit that i've recently had problems with out imports (4 recalls on the cr-v and my wife's GS300 has had the front coil-overs replaced (warranty) and there's an odd sound when it's put into drive (about 20K miles on the thing)....all that said, my family has bought 10 lexus' vehicles since they launched in this country (including ES250, ES 300, 3 different GS models, an IS300 and an original coupe), we've had 4 different subarus and a pathfinder - no a SINGLE major problem in the bunch (minor stuff like a set of plug wires, axle bearings).....the last american car we owned was a buick somerset regal which was an unmitigated quality disaster.......

...there is nothing substantive that i can find which directly correlates an increase in domestic car sales with the view that the american manufacturers are catching up with quality...the data that i see (from secondary sources, i admit) strongly suggest that the increase in domestic car sales is DIRECTLY linked to incentives.....look at last year's sales numbers (i believe GM was down Y vs Y but am not sure, i just remember that ford was saved, once again by the F150 and chrysler tanked with a 16.7% drop in overall sales (this has GOT to be dieter's last year))....the consumer's gone somewhere else, gentlemen - the market share numbers continue a downward trend and launching 16 new models will help but not likely affect the overall trend - i just don't think the trend is reversible...btw, does GM offer a 10 year/100,000 warranty? (yeah, neither does lexus or honda but one can ask whether their level of perceived quality makes that marketing ploy meaningless)

...what was last year's best selling car? - the camry, second year in a row

...by the time the perceived quality gap between domestics and imports is proven to be closed, the camry won't be the best selling car, it will probably be a korean built car (or pick your favorite 3rd world country - china, singapore, whatever)...so that leaves either very profitable low volume niches for the americans or they will by that time have formed much better strategic alliances with the next leaders in the volume end of the business - who would have ever thought that renault and nissan would be a good fit?

...in the car business, as well as in my own industry, history is not necessarliy an accurate predictor of the future

...i read an interesting article recently about why, in many circumstances, the design of a pushrod V8 is superior to that of an OHC engine, so that has really affected the way i look at the japanese sewing machines....i took an informal poll of a few family members and the perception of the domestic manufacturers is they continue to use old technology (pushrods????Yecch!!!, "MY Infinity is rear wheel drive??? No, it can't be because that's what Ford uses!!! ), the fit and finish is poor and the price is usually too high...seems to cut across a wide demographic range but the oldsters (>70 YO) still love their detroit brands...tough, tough times




[Modified by Kid_Again, 8:25 AM 1/7/2004]

Solid327

Gotta love that Camry with it's exhaust pipe hanging down several inches below the chassis. Looks like it's about to come loose. First time I saw it, I thought that's what had happened but that's the way it's engineered. Nice! :D

My Honda has had three recalls, minor stuff, but a hassle none the less. It has given me 130k relatively trouble free miles but has been an expensive vehicle to maintain, (if you follow factory maintenance schedules). I have had to replace CVC joints, A/C compressor, radio antenna, timing belt and water pump. I've probably spent somewhere between 3-4k on scheduled maintenance and needed repairs, not counting oil changes and tires. This has been my 3rd Honda/Acura. I'd probably buy another BUT I'm in the market for a truck and there is NO WAY I'm buying a foreign made truck. No matter how nice. Just ain't happening.

Solid327

Gotta love that Camry with it's exhaust pipe hanging down several inches below the chassis. Looks like it's about to come loose. First time I saw it, I thought that's what had happened but that's the way it's engineered. Nice! :D

jimgessner

My extended family includes six kids from two marriages. And 6 grandkids. That has resulted in over 23 vehicles in the family stable. The work horse vehicles are 98 Dodge 3500 4X4, 88 Ford F-250HD 4X4 with 5 speed, 95 Toyota pickup xted cab, 2.4liter, 5 speed. All have well over 100,000 miles and keep going like the durecell batteries. The interior on the Ford finally was replaced with the original clutch last summer.

The new 99 Audi 6 all wheel drive is a beautiful car, but goes to the dealer like Sunday church visits............weekly. The new 04 Camary will replace it next month.

The Toyota RSX that #1 Grandson saved over $9000 down for, has had an oil leak that Toyota finally says " We can't fix it" He is trying to get a new engine out of them. Good luck. He is now looking for a good used Toyata 4x4 to commute to college in. Old, beat up, but reliable. "No more new cars Grandad,.....they get all the money, I get the experience" He is lerning life's lessons well.

So the beat goes on.........#2 daughter says she buys a two year old 35000-55000 mile Hondas or Toyatas because they are reliable. She gets them from a private party so she feels warm and fussy about the purchase. Her gut feeling has paid off , in that those cars have been passed down to her kids, with very few problems and now have over 150,000 trouble free miles on each of them. Currently she is driving a two year old Chrysler Town and Country and says it is the most user friendly vehicle she has ever owned. It has over 70000and with very few problems.

Now that the C-5'S are " old used cars", I wonder if a clean, maintance free one is out there.

Kid_Again

"I'd probably buy another BUT I'm in the market for a truck and there is NO WAY I'm buying a foreign made truck. No matter how nice. Just ain't happening"

...that's an interesting point, why won't you buy a foreign badged truck?

66rag427

You hate American guys remind me of the whiners I used to go to school with as a kid. Whatever is trendy is where you go. It's more important what your friends think than what you think. In my 35 years of auto ownership I think I've owned almost every type vehicle, the slightly above average Joe, could own. My Japannese version turned to rust onvernight, my second J version had a fuel delivery problem that could never be solved, my European version the engine blew, and yes I've had issues with my American cars also. My final decision! If they are all in need of maintenance then I will buy U.S. instead of sending my money to countries that won't let us even try and compete(Japan) for their business. I'm sure you trendy consious boys will love this one!!!