Stingray1967

Ok, so my dad and I are thinking (again) about restoring his '67 L79 convertible. We are interested in bringing it back as a daily driver, and not as an NCRS car. Mostly original parts would be nice (where we can), but we're not going crazy with the car. We don't want to have to take out a mortgage to restore the car. :D

Anyway, the big issue is that the frame is kinda rusty. The car is basically original except for when we brought it out of storage a few years ago, we had a new carb and new rear leaf springs put on.

I'm first interested to see how much it would be worth as is, and then interested in what you guys think how much it would cost to restore it (ballpark).

As I understand it, we can either repair or replace the frame. I'm assuming that replacing is a lot better AND a lot more expensive.

Here's the pics. By the way, we also have the factory hard top (in black).

























[Modified by Stingray1967, 7:32 PM 9/27/2003]


[Modified by Stingray1967, 12:22 AM 9/28/2003]

Jimbo64

Great pic's. Some of your frame rust looks like surface rust and can be repaired. A lot of it "appears " to be more serious and would be much more difficult to repair. Remember you can't repair rotten steel, in most cases it has to be cut away and new welded in replacing the bad. This will be an easy decision for you once you get the body off and see the extent of the problem. A new frame might in the long run be the cheaper way to go and then you're starting out with something that you know is good and will last a long time. Good luck and keep us updated on where your project goes. :cheers: :seeya Can't help you with the cost analysis questions but im sure other forum members will be able to.

RGGregory

I echo Jim's thoughts on the frame issue. The engine compartment looks to have a lot of the original equipment (minus the ignition shielding, etc). How does it run? But if the car is near original, then you look to have an L-79 327/350, vice an aluminum head 427 L89?? Either way, bringing back a 67 to a bit of its former glory is a good thing! Good luck

Bob Gregory

67 327/350 vert, Silver Pearl/Black
65 396/425 coupe, Nassau Blue/White

PS - The interior looks nice. How are the gauges?


[Modified by RGGregory, 11:18 PM 9/27/2003]

Stingray1967

Bob, whoops, yeah it is the 327 SB, 350 horse motor. Sorry. I'm normally a C5 guy, so my engine codes for C2's are a little rusty.

Oh, and the gauges are fine, except for a dead clock, and a bouncing tach.


[Modified by Stingray1967, 12:24 AM 9/28/2003]

waynec

The frame doesn't look awful to me, but it's hard to tell from pictures unless you can actually see rustout holes. Tapping it firmly all over with a hammer will give you a better idea of it's condition, as deep-rusted areas will have a much duller sound than solid areas. My frame looked pretty bad in the mid-eighties when I restored it... I spent a few days chipping rust layers off it, found that it was sound, so then I had it chemically de-rusted (perhaps $500 these days, I suspect, plus the expense of carting it). I finished mine with flattened Imron paint, and rustproofed the inside. Came out great.

The general answer to your question of cost is that the restoration will probably cost more (when you add the current value of the car) than it would cost to purchase a decent restored driver. It's difficult to find an original car, all in one piece, that hasn't been trashed by a previous "restorer" for under $20k these days, especially a 67.

Some say you're better off starting with a poor (ie, cheap) example, because you're going to redo it all anyway; that may not hold true for Corvettes if you're trying to do an NCRS restoration, but it probably holds true for a driver restoration.

And, of course, the more labor you can do yourself, the less you have to pay for services. So, you gotta want to do it to save this particular car, and/or for the education, love, and satisfaction of doing most of the work yourself.

I think I put almost $5k into just the chassis/suspension on mine. You have to expect to put another $3k or more into the engine, and perhaps $5k into a decent paint job (with very minor body repairs), assuming you are farming the paint work out. Now start adding up the little stuff (then multiply by 2 or 3, because you'll be way off) like tranny rebuild, differential rebuild, brakes, clutch, new aluminum radiator, heater core, gas tank, rebuilt accessories and instruments, weatherstripping, exhaust, grille, paint, plating, lenses, glass, headlight motors, emblems, travel to swap meets, shipping costs, sales taxes, trailer rental, tools, etc, etc, etc. It adds up in a hurry. $20k is not an unrealistic estimate, probably more like $30k.

Many years ago, I think I heard someone estimate that a current-year car that sells new for say, $10k, would cost you in excess of $50k just to buy the individual pieces over the counter, and you'd still have to assemble and paint it (and have the time, expertise, tools, and workspace to do it). And, restoration is like redecorating a house: as soon as you get one thing looking great, the stuff around it cries out for freshening, too, and what the heck, as long as I have this all apart I might as well do just these other few things..., etc. Set realistic goals for the quality level of the finished car and stick to them.

It's a worthy undertaking, just start it with your eyes open or you'll quickly become rudely disillusioned.

Good luck!



[Modified by waynec, 11:41 PM 9/27/2003]

Mikey1

I absolutely disagree with waynec. Reason is that the rear half of the frame has very strong surface rust and looks like lots of material was pitted out over time.

So thickness is the main concern and issue. You need to drill very small holes (that could easily be welded) to make sure that the overall thickness is at least 2 mm. In some cases...as for the frame rail end and for the 3rd crossmember I would doubt this.

Then any reapir MUST replace these parts.....as heavy load on the frame could make it break otherwise.

Given the fact that a repair of this kind (frame rails, crossmember, kickup) has about 2500 $ cost in parts alone....I would recommend replacing the frame. Doublecheck this....the drill test is of the essence.

Now there are 2 options.....buying a used frame....maybe a later year one...taking of the strenghteners of the 3 crossmember and replacing the rearend of the frame. (Reweld this area from the old frame). Most likely you will not find a used 1967 frame in good condition.

2nd option is to buy a new one. That is probably what I would do in this case. Some 4k bucks....adding some wax...and start adding parts to it almost straight away.

A total frame built up may cost you then about 10 to 15 k bucks if you replace brake lines, brake hardware, all rubber, clea & reapint engine, add new U-joints and so on....

...which is what I would also recommend to make it a truly reliable driver.

Remember one rule of thumb: It always takes twice as long and costs double the originally estimated amount !

I put around 14k in my frame and engine without major work to the body.

Dave McDufford

I generally agree with the previous posts. From experience (I am 2/3rds of the way through a 65 L79 convertible), it will cost you a lot more than what you think and will take longer than you think.

As highlighted from your involvement in this board, vettes are a passion not just a car. You will replace and restore to a higher standard than what you may think now. As previously mentioned, once a part is restored and looks great the one next to it looks like c___ and you will do it also (trust me).

If you have the tools, $30K (+/- $5K) is probably a good number. If you do not have the tools (compressors, bead blast cabinet, painting equipment, etc), add another $5K. Also where are you going to do it? You need two bays one for the chassis and one for the body (or store them outside which may not a good idea), plus one bay or more for a work area with benches and tables.

These are numbers I expect to end up with, starting with a reasonable driver. My goal is a brand new 1965 Corvette. While I am not trying for a 100 point NCRS car, I do respect their documentation and I am for the most part following their guidance on fit and finish because that is what a brand new 1965 Corvette looked like.

On one of the boards someone asked why the NCRS board is a bunch of grumpy old men. The answer was they all have $65K in cars worth $45K. I am one of them, but the experience and satisfaction of taking the vette apart and putting it back together with my son (and wife) is worth it. But I am only doing one and I am keeping it.

Good luck.

Dave

:cheers:


[Modified by Dave McDufford, 9:13 AM 9/28/2003]


[Modified by Dave McDufford, 9:13 AM 9/28/2003]

67's

I agree with most that has been posted, mine will be a short answer, did your dad buy the car new, or has he had it for a really long time? Can you do most of the work yourselves and do you have the tools to doit like was previously posted? If not I would suggest that he just looks for a different car unless he wants to be without a car for a couple of years, most people that undertake a project of this kind never finish it, and the ones that do it takes a couple of years, there are exceptions to this, a couple of people on this forum have done cars very fast like Reviver, and Midyear, but they are the exceptions, not the average. It takes alot of planning, the ability to do almost all of the work yourself, and alot of time to do a car in less than a year.

I would say that for what its worth, your dads car as it sits is worth between 10 to $15K, although not knowing how much of the work you can do yourself, no one can give you a ballpark on what it would cost to restore the car, if you can't do any of the work, you might be looking for $30K and up to pay to have the work done.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Tom

Stingray1967

Everyone, thanks for your replies so far.

Tom, to answer your question, my dad and I have some tools, but only 1/4 of what we probably need to do this restoration ourselves. Further, we have virtually no experience in tearing a car apart. My dad is pretty good at maintenance and some light repair, but a body off resto.....I'm a little scared of (frankly).

As far as where he got the car, it had already been through 3 owners in 1973 when he bought it from a dental student at the University of Minnesota. He drove it in the winter (in MN) for many years and it was hit once (we think) before he got it.

Here's the problem. We don't want to get rid of it, because we've had it for SO long, and your's truly came home from the hospital in it, AND learned how to drive stick in it. Here's some pics.

That lady is my mom, in 1974, and that green clump of a blanket is me (somewhere).


This is my dad and me in late '74 (I think).


Here's a link for more history.
http://stingray.dragonzero.net/history.htm

So, we don't want to buy another one, because any other midyear doesn't have the same emotional ties that this car does.

How's that for an answer?


[Modified by Stingray1967, 10:59 AM 9/28/2003]


[Modified by Stingray1967, 11:01 AM 9/28/2003]

Matt Gruber

figure 1000 hours plus parts.
i did a "quickie" mechanical restoration on my 61 in only 660 hours.

SBR

The cost of restoring your car will depend on how much of the work you can do yourself. If you are not mechanically inclined like myself expect to spend 40K on a full restoration. Remember the phrase "restoration vortex". Seriously though you definitely have a lot of memories with the car and if you can afford to go for it! Good luck.

Mikey1

So...history is a good reason to do it. Then there is no reason to work on pure economical base.....but....

I can tell you that I had my first Vette for only a bit more then half a year before the decision was "frame off" !! (Did that with a two post lift....but there is lotsa ways to do it.

The best then is....read everything possible....talk to people who have done it....if you have the chance...be part in a body lift session somewhere nearby....get some experience. Getting the body of the frame is just mechanical work...some people....and some patience...that´s all (guess some body mounts might be well rusted....). And getting some stuff abpart...like body mount screws...or trailing arm bolts will probably end up using rather rude methods....probably more rude than you would expect.

Getting a compresser and a small bead blasting cabinet is a good idea...get all information for the body dolly. you need to built that.

Be prepared to spend some 1200 hours of work (if you don´t do major bodywork). I have done that in one winter period almost fully on myself (was unemployed...fulltime working on car).

More people working will not usually getting the job to be done faster....logistics is key. Don´t do everything by yourself.... there is stuff that others can do better....sandblasting larger parts i.e.

If you need something send personal message....I have got pics of almost every period of the resto.

RGGregory

I echo everyone's sentiments on the cost/time thing. I farmed some of the bigger things out on my 67, but still had a blast (with some serious frustrations at times!) doing a lot of the work myself. It's nice to be able to work on a car without a code-reader, software-based diagnostic tools, etc. It's a good feeling to work on the car, get some good advice (extremely knowledgable people on the forum - SWCDuke, JohnZ, Lars, Jim Gesner - the list goes on), implement the advice (with positive results :) ), and then realize you are getting fundamental knowledge of how you car works and why.

Gauges were my Waterloo when first attempting to handle all the restoration work myself, so I'm glad to hear yours are in good working order. The clock isn't a big deal, especially if you aren't looking for originality. The tach bounce is curable with some attention to the distributor (unfortunately I don't know exactly what the "attention" is - I have a case of the bounces I have to fix as well - I need to post that question).

I think with some elbow grease, paint, and attention to detail you can really bring your engine and engine compartment back to life.

Let us know how your frame inspection goes. I used to bring an ice pick with me to check out cars in the old days, but you've already gotten some very sound advice on how to approach your frame issues.

Good luck :thumbs:

Stingray1967

Thanks guys, I appreciate all of your comments.

My dad and I are going to try and get the car into a local vette wrench turner here in a week or so to see what they think also.

Grey Ghost

Should you decide to sell it. PLEASE LET ME KNOW ! rc648@yahoo.com

I would love to have a resto project.

A replacement frame is around 3000.00. When you take the body off the frame, you will have a good deal of work to get the body panels realigned correctly on the replacement frame. I agree with the others...probably in the 30k range if you have to farm out most of the work.

TOM65 L76 96 LT1

With the family history that the car has i think you and your dad should go for it. it will be a lot of work and the cost will be lots of $$$$$,but a restored original 67 roadster is worth approx. 35,000.00$ to 40,000.00$ (just my opinion) and the fact that your dad bought the car in 73 gives you a lot of room as to the amount of $$$$$ you can put into the car. if you have any questions email me,i live in APPLE VALLEY so i am very close to you. i did a 65 and i learned alot with that car,some good and some bad but i had a great sense of accomplishment when it was done my email address is GREEN65VETTE@AOL.COM Looking forward to hearing from you Tom

Nicky71

Trust me, its worth the money and time invested.

Don't sell the car. You are one of the few who have a car that actually has a personal history with meaning. My father never considered owning a car that wasn't a Cadillac or Lincoln, so I never stood a chance of being in your position. Instead, I had to wait until this year (age 24) to realize my dream of owning a 67.

I agree that it may ultimately cost more to restore what you have than to sell it and buy a finished car. However, history and heritage are some of the most important aspects of Corvette ownership--and you are very fortunate to own one that has a special history all its own.

INMYBLOOD

Chris I have no idea aboout cost or concerns of C2's :confused: All I know is my father has had his 1960 since 62 and I came along in 65... His car has been a huge part of my life. I've helped him do reapairs as the years have passed. Sure it's not perfect but he enjoys it still.. I've had my 58 since 85 and as my sons will say someday, "Dad had his car before us" Yep I dread taking mine apart as I'm very impulsive and impatient. I know a paint job would feel like it's never going to get done to me. I thought I'd paint away this white paint job after 2 years now it's almost 20 and the white does not bother me so much.. HAHA Good luck with the car. :thumbs:

Tom Piper

Looking at the way the frame is dented in on the fourth picture, my guess is your frame isn't worth trying to fix. This leads me to believe that the frame is way too thin all over. I would look at a new one for about $3995.
Take a good look at the trailing arms and differential support too.

Tom Piper

Stingray1967

Thanks again for all the info.

We are going to try and get the car to a local shop weekend after next. Wish us luck!

P.S. Any tips for hauling a vette with a U-Haul 2-axle trailer with my Tahoe?