richopp

I have run into another new issue that, after 50 years of doing car stuff, is new to me.

The water pump on my '66 327/300 failed, so I contacted the person who purchased all the rebuilt pumps from the previous vendor who retired. He sent me a pump, we installed it, and it ran fine for a couple of weeks then the bearing started making horrible noises.

He sent me another one and also pictures of the failed one that he disassembled. The pics showed dark spots and he said that my 327 was full of rust based on what he saw. SO, we replaced that pump with another rebuilt one he sent me (no credit, and no credit for the first (I think original) one either although there is a core credit).

Now, after about a month, this one is again failing and the bearing noise is loud. This is after about 50 miles.

The brown (rust) we saw in the pics he sent was odd to us. Obviously, we flushed the engine and even purchased some chemical to take care of the "rust" issue.

The INTERESTING part is that in NONE of these cases did we see any rust in the coolant--fairly new as we installed a new DeWitts radiator last year and flushed the engine and used the proper coolant that DeWitts said to use (I phoned them to be sure, of course.)

The coolant from the first replacement showed no rust. The "rust" chemical flush showed no rust, and we put in new coolant again with the new pump. We saw no rust in that coolant either.

I am stumped. I have never had an engine rust from the inside; I realize it happens, but we flushed it twice, changed coolant, and STILL never saw any rust in any process we did.

I am thinking of just buying a new, non-original (slightly cheaper) water pump this time rather than the expensive ones that he has; my car is a driver, so...

SO, anyone ever see this and have any idea what is going on? The only major difference is that the coolant we use with the DeWitts may be different from what was used before, but we took it out twice and there was NO rust in it.

HELP! This is getting both expensive and confusing.

Cheers!

Railroadman

Just to clarify, when you say "no credit" you mean you're paying full price for each of those pumps, other than the core charge for the ones you return?

Is it possible this rebuilder is using an incorrect part, or some sort of lube that isn't doing the job?

richopp

Supposedly there is a core charge so when the failed pump is returned, a slight credit is processed toward the purchase.

Evidently, not in my case. The first one I sent back, which I THINK was the original, no credit.

The one I purchased and that failed (due to rust) no credit.

SO, I paid shipping for both, which is about $21.00 and paid for 2 water pumps. This one has now failed and, although I haven't removed it yet--just started making what sounds like bearing noise yesterday--my GUESS is that it will show rust again and no refund.

I get that. Our only issue is that NONE of the times we checked the coolant did we see ANY flakes of rust. It was completely "clear" meaning the color of the coolant with zero particles of anything.

If it isn't in my engine, I can't imagine where the rust comes from other than the pumps were rebuilt years ago and sat on the shelf for a long time. The vendor is now in Arizona, so the best state for keeping out rust, but I don't remember where the original company was.

This is about the $$, sure, but I am much more interested in NOT having this happen again, so can't figure out how clear coolant can cause the pump to fail. Is there another variable that would cause the bearing to go after 50 or fewer miles? We are totally stumped.

Cheers!

Railroadman

I'm no expert but I sure don't think it's your engine. Maybe this thread will bring more buyers with similar problems to light.

richopp

Thanks! I hope it is something I am missing. The only other thing I can think of is a mis-alignment of the pulleys, but they have not been moved or changed, and of course, they don't account for the rust in the pictures of the opened pump he sent.

Cheers!

gbvette62

Doesn't the 66 pump have the removeable back cover? What do you have to lose by taking it apart yourself and inspecting it for rust? You may find that like your coolant it's perfectly clean and then you'll at least have a good idea that rust in your engine block isn't the cause.

nutt

Not a sbc, but my bbc....I sold the car, stored the motor for about 10 years, then drug it out for use in another car. While on the stand I pulled the water pump and noticed rusty water. I hooked up a hose to one side of the block and got a ton of muddy looking water till minutes later it turned clear. Wasn't satisfied, so I pulled the block plugs and minimal water drainage out either hold with the block full of water. This was problematic, so I fished a wire around in each hole and got clumps of muck out and the flow was muddy for a bit. Still wasn't satisfied, so I pulled all freeze plugs and there was sediment in each hole with the majority in the rear most plugs, and one was even rusted paper thin, ready to blow. Cleaned, flushed, cleaned and then ran glycol mix and distilled water and a few years later, still good.
A couple years later, I had the exact same problem in another 396 that I rebuilt 25 years earlier but in that time was driven maybe 100 miles. Same procedure. Sitting kills these things, in so many ways.
Pulling a block plug after you drain your system will tell you volumes, note the flow rate and the color, try to capture as much as you can and observe. It should flow out unrestricted, not clumpy, not in spurts, not dribbling, it should drain like any other spicket.

richopp

Yes, I am sure it does since the pics he sent me showed it apart. That's a good idea and I will do when we take it off since it isn't worth anything to them as it is.

Thank-you!

richopp

OK, we did discuss this and I guess that is the next step. It seems odd that the coolant, the chem flush, and and then the coolant again don't show any rust, but like you said, it could be all clumped up and require a bit more to get it cleaned out.

I drive the call several times a week, so it is odd that this is just now starting to be an issue.

Thank-you!

R

bbxlr8

Found this both interesting & super frustrating for you. As others have pointed out, while we think these engines are special (and some are!) there are millions of them running around. I would think that anything that far down in the jackets would not circulate and affect the WP that quickly. Thus, this would be a VERY common occurrence vs. usual suspects: pulley alignment or long-term use.

You did exactly what I have done successfully with many old cars. I would throw a cheap replacement on as well to see what happens before throwing more money at this particular rebuilder..?

richopp

Thank-you. It seems like the best approach. I guess we will try to pop a freeze plug and see what we can see. After that, an inexpensive pump.

I am not dissing the supplier. I can understand his viewpoint, of course, but wanted to point out that this is where we are and the costs are getting out of hand. After all, water pumps are pretty inexpensive and usually only require replacing once.

Thanks again,

R

nutt

Remove a block drain plug first, much easier than a freeze plug. Monitor the exit flow then fish a q-tip in there to test for sediment. If there's any dark brownish sludge, it's now time to remove the freeze plugs.

pop23235

If you really want a clean block, fill it with Evaporust. Not sure I’d feel comfortable doing an older assembly as freeze plug’s could get real thin and head gaskets could be compromised, but before building, they come out as new Sometimes rust is all that’s sealing some areas.

richopp

Thank-you. I am not sure what we used last time, but I will DEFINITELY try this.

Cheers!

richopp

Really EXCELLENT idea. I will give it a try. So little room in there, and I really can't see pulling the motor unless it is really necessary, and then, of course, you know what would happen...and I just don't have the money right now for a rebuild down here, nor would I probably trust ANYONE in FL to do the work. After living here 50+ years, I have learned that the skill set is almost zero...

Anyway, thank-you. We will try it and see.

Cheers!

DansYellow66

I had a Plymouth in the 60s that developed rusty coolant passages - probably from neglect by the first owner and further neglected by me. It turned a nice brown color, stopped up the heater core and took a lot of chemical flushing to get it cleaned up. But one thing it never bothered was the water pump. When I sold it 4 years later it still had the same water pump in it.

R66

You might consider the rust accumulates at the bottom of the block. The flow of coolant is from mid point into the block and then up thru the heads and back to the intake at the thermostat. Then the coolant goes in the top of the radiator and the suction of the water pump is at the bottom of the radiator. Now, in order for large rust particles to reach the water pump, they have to defy gravity and flow thru the heads and intake, then pass thru the thermostat. Then the tubes in the radiator are not very large and would likely filter out large particles. The smaller particles would likely settle in the bottom of the radiator.
So, I would pull off the bottom hose of the radiator and see what rust you get. When you pull the pump, also pull the back cover. Then, pull the top hose also and see if there is any rust. No rust in the radiator is a strong indication that the water pump failures are not a result of rust in your engine. Millions of engines are still running with rust in them, and I would be temped to call "BULL / COW PIES.

Westlotorn

If you pull a drain plug from the block it will most likely be plugged. That is not abnormal in an old engine. We pull the boat plugs, Chevy 350 and 351W Ford every year. I take a 8 penny nail with me each time and frequently have to dig around breaking through the rust to get it to drain. Granted these are fresh water cooled with no antifreeze but it is done every year. Your car may not have been drained in 50 years? I have seen bad water and rust affect water pump life but never in 50 miles use. Maybe in 5,000 miles but not 50 miles.

How is your fan clutch and fan? An imbalance issue is far more likely to cause a quick fail than rust.

What started this repair? Did your original WP suddenly fail?

For a while manufacturers were using a ceramic seal in water pumps to keep water inside your engine. The ceramic seals were very susceptible to any grit in the coolant. That was the reason many anti freeze companies started advertising Low Silicon and low phosphorus anti freeze. Both of these were hard on ceramic seals in water pumps. Might ask your rebuilder what type seal he is installing and verify what type anti freeze you installed.

BD104X

A rusty coolant system needs to be addressed but the water in the engine shouldn't be making contact with the bearing unless a seal fails and I don't see that happening within 50 miles even if the coolant looks like swamp water. Are you sure you're not over tightening the belt? I have found that a long piece of threaded rod or straight brake line laid in the pulley groove makes it much easier to spot misalignment than just eyeballing the belt.

SJW

With these installed, I'm less inclined to procrastinate on regular coolant service intervals:







Live well,

SJW