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This vehicle is for sale online and the owner is depicting it as a numbers matching car. It is a 1960, and the code is a little hard to read but I think it says V0909XBB. Which doesnt make sense to be numbers matching. I am new to these cars and am constantly learning so I am afraid I am missing something. I would be purchasing the car for my father as a retirement gift and I know how much he appreciates all original cars.
Be careful with what you buy. There more unscrupulous dealers and sellers out there than honest ones. Many will claim ignorance when they know the truth, but lie by omission. If you find something you really want, it is worth it to have it inspected by a knowledgeable corvette guy or a professional. Just too many ways to get screwed on a classic car. Obviously your seller is lying and I would run. The large "2" at the other end of the pad is suspect too.
How does a guy actually "match numbers" with a 60 or earlier, I thought I remember reading or someone telling me that the engine themselves had no way of identifying whether or not it was original with the car? Meaning you can only verify it was a period correct engine because there was no casting numbers until later like 61 or 62?
How does a guy actually "match numbers" with a 60 or earlier, I thought I remember reading or someone telling me that the engine themselves had no way of identifying whether or not it was original with the car? Meaning you can only verify it was a period correct engine because there was no casting numbers until later like 61 or 62?
I don’t recall a complete definition posted for matching numbers on this forum so I decided to create MY version of it. This is for C1s and C2s ONLY. Some may agree some may not that is your choice.
Initially this has nothing to do with documentation, restamped engines, trim tags, V.I.N. tags, tank stickers, etc. I will address MY thoughts on this later in this post.
First, COMPLETE matching numbers would include every small component to have the correct (where applicable) casting number, date and or part number correct and dated correct to the birthday of the car. SOME PEOPLE believe that early C1s (prior to 1960 when they began stamping the partial V.I.N. on the engine pad) can not be considered matching numbers with regards to the drive train because of the factory absence of this number. To ME and others this is not correct. If Chevrolet determined it was not necessary how can the hobby dictate something else? If the car’s birthday lines up with the correct casting numbers, casting dates, and stamped information isn’t that matching numbers? It was for the factory so why not the hobby. If you have a car that meets this criteria and someone tells you it can not be PROVEN to be matching numbers ask them to prove it is not. It is a glass 1/2 full vs. glass 1/2 empty scenario. Matching numbers to some can be as simple as the V.I.N. plate matching the title as the law and the auto manufactures intended. The auto manufactures also created some partial hidden V.I.N.s to assist law enforcement and insurance companies in the case of theft.
Many people consider a car matching numbers if the title, V.I.N., engine and trans, casting numbers, casting dates and stamped numbers match and line up with the car’s birthday. I am going to describe these things as this is what MOST people in the hobby seem to be interested in.
The available numbers, to consider matching numbers, changed over the years.
This information is BASIC INFORMATION FOR NUMBERS MATCHING showing what matches for each particular year or series of years. I will not include all of the different suffix codes for engine, transmission and in later years certain option combinations. For that information see links below.
1953-1955---You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match, and the engine number for 6 cylinders are located on the right side of the block to the rear of the distributor. 8-cylinder engine number is on pad on front right hand side of the block behind the water pump. All Engine numbers start at 1001. The prefix letter identifies where the engine was built, model year and model type - "F" ~ Flint, "T" ~ Tonawanda.YG stamped suffix code denotes Corvette engine 1953-1955 for 6 cylinders. FG stamped suffix code denotes Corvette V8 engine in 1955. Early Corvette's that had 6 Cylinder engines did not have the Letter "V" as the first Sequence Number. The Letter "V" stands for V8. The VIN of 6 cylinder cars will always start with the Letter "E". This is why the VIN will be 10 digits for 1953-54 cars. For the 1955 model they added the letter V to get 11. After 1955 they went back to a 10 digit sequence.
1956-1957---You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match 1956-1957 model V.I.N.s begin with an “E”, and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission.
1958---1959 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1958-1959 model V.I.N.s begin with an “J”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission.
1960 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1960 model V.I.N.s begin with an “0”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission AND a partial V.I.N.
1961 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1961 model V.I.N.s begin with an “1”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission and a partial V.I.N.
1962 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1962 model V.I.N.s begin with an “2”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine and transmission and a partial V.I.N.
1963 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1960-1962 model V.I.N.s begin with an “3”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine, transmission some options and a partial V.I.N.
1964 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1960-1962 model V.I.N.s begin with an “4”), and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine, transmission, some options and a partial V.I.N.
1965---1967 You had a title and V.I.N. plate that match (1965-1967 model V.I.N.s begin with an “1”) the model year digit was moved to the 5th character for 1965-1967, and an engine code stamped in the block with a suffix code identifying the engine, transmission, some options and a partial V.I.N.
Beginning in 1963 Corvettes have a trim tag that will identify the exterior and interior colors. For 1963-1967 these colors now add to the matching numbers that MOST people consider. Some of these tags have additional information for the car coded as well. Beginning in 1967 Corvettes have a build sheet glued to the top of the gas tank. All of these things as well as dealer purchase orders, re-stamped engine pads, casting numbers and casting dates can be changed/faked and have been for roughly 40 years so don’t assume that it mean the car was BORN this way. Some of this early “work” is detectable however the reproducers have honed their skills over the years to become undetectable.
Here are links.
There may be better ones, there may be mistakes, I am just giving you quick access for this thread you are welcome to spend YOUR time searching the web for others:
Index of detailed Corvette numbers info including engine casting numbers and dates, 1953-1967 Engine Identification Codes (stamped engine suffix codes) 1953-67 Rear Axle Ratios & Identification Codes, and more http://corvette-world.com/page-2-Cor...fications.html
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I'll never understand what's so difficult about the English language. You can post a wall of text talking about it, but you will still never change the fact that "matching" means that something “matches" another thing, while "correct" is simply something appropriate but doesn't match anything.
Mike Antonick, the Author of the Corvette Black Book, stated:
.. starting during the 1960 production through 1991, this VIN derivative was stamped into the same pad as the suffix number... More than any other number, it is the engine's vin derivative match (this word's emphasis made by author) to the vehicle number that constitutes matching numbers (again, emphasis by author) terminology.
Feel free to make up your own definitions and reference others who might buy it. I'm going with the Author of the Black Book on this topic and always will. Plenty of people, usually sellers who have a vested interest in fuzzy, obtuse, convenient “definitions,” will play differently.
"Matching" means the numbers match something. The VIN derivative stamp matches the car’s VIN, either the title or the frame stamping. This simple English word is not hard to understand or needs further creative expansion.
"Correct" means acceptable, appropriate or whatever other way you want to describe it. It does NOT mean it MATCHES anything. A correct numbered alternator is not matching anything. A correct, appropriate C1 Corvette's Assembly Code does NOT MATCH ANYTHING.
Why does it matter? A C1 with a “correct” Assembly Code is great to have but does not infer that the engine was born with the car, any more than a correct numbered alternator does. A real “matching numbers” pad that includes a VIN derivative that matches the car’s title or frame stamping does indicate this, with of course the proper caveats for fakes. These words should not be used interchangeably.
Matching and correct items on a vintage car greatly affects their value. Making up convenient definitions is not helpful. Different versions of “ALL numbers matching” claims are intentionally disingenuous.
I'll never understand what's so difficult about the English language. You can post a wall of text talking about it, but you will still never change the fact that "matching" means that something “matches" another thing, while "correct" is simply something appropriate but doesn't match anything.
Mike Antonick, the Author of the Corvette Black Book, stated:
.. starting during the 1960 production through 1991, this VIN derivative was stamped into the same pad as the suffix number... More than any other number, it is the engine's vin derivative match (this word's emphasis made by author) to the vehicle number that constitutes matching numbers (again, emphasis by author) terminology.
Feel free to make up your own definitions and reference others who might buy it. I'm going with the Author of the Black Book on this topic and always will. Plenty of people, usually sellers who have a vested interest in fuzzy, obtuse, convenient “definitions,” will play differently.
"Matching" means the numbers match something. The VIN derivative stamp matches the car’s VIN, either the title or the frame stamping. This simple English word is not hard to understand or needs further creative expansion.
"Correct" means acceptable, appropriate or whatever other way you want to describe it. It does NOT mean it MATCHES anything. A correct numbered alternator is not matching anything. A correct, appropriate C1 Corvette's Assembly Code does NOT MATCH ANYTHING.
Why does it matter? A C1 with a “correct” Assembly Code is great to have but does not infer that the engine was born with the car, any more than a correct numbered alternator does. A real “matching numbers” pad that includes a VIN derivative that matches the car’s title or frame stamping does indicate this, with of course the proper caveats for fakes. These words should not be used interchangeably.
Matching and correct items on a vintage car greatly affects their value. Making up convenient definitions is not helpful. Different versions of “ALL numbers matching” claims are intentionally disingenuous.
As I said, this is MY. opinion and you are entitled to yours and can chose to believe the author of any book you choose but again that is just THEIR opinion.
Regarding what “matches” can only be determined by what was available to match when built. In the case of early C1s we are stuck with what GM did. With regards to the engine NO ONE can argue that you don’t have a matching numbers car if you have the correct casting number engine with the correct casting date for time built car, correct font/ style stamped date and suffix characters on a pad with factory broach marks. If you look at this ANY OTHER WAY you are simply ignoring what GM gave us to work with and what they gave us to MATCH. What this boils down to is that in my example above these items “match” what is acceptable to th Corvette hobby as far as how they were built regarding these numbers in relationship to the time the car was built. THAT IS A MATCH.
04-06-2023, 10:08 AM
Numbers Matching???
