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There has been some confusion. Early on you said fuel was getting to the Fuel Meter and none from the nozzles. Maybe I was using incorrect terminology, I'm a newbie to these FI units. Fuel is making up to the fuel filter, but I cannot tell if it is making it past there. I have cranked the engine on three different occasions with the #1 cylinder spider wire disconnected from its nozzle (with the wire running to the top of the ignition coil undone) and nothing has ever come out. If gas is making it into the rear-most area of the FI unit, immediately after the fuel filter, I do not know. You were getting fuel shooting out of the hose you connected to the engine pump as a test. I first confirmed that fuel was making it past the fuel pump by attaching a piece of hose to the metal line running from the fuel pump the fuel filter and watched gas come out the end of the hose. It did not come out in a steady stream though, rather in a sort of pulsating action.
That's why my thought was a malfunctioning anti-siphon solenoid. If, some way, some how, the anti-siphon solenoidgot damaged between picking the FI unit up from Tom's and installing the FI unit on the engine, would that stop fuel from making it to the nozzles?
It now appears you're uncertain about engine fuel pump function. You replaced the canister filter with a glass bowl type but said you had a bad gasket. Did you fix that? Yes, the canister no longer leaks when cranking the engine. I though I had a problem with the pump because the glass bowl is now only filling 1/2 way, but you stated that is the expected result. BTW, typically the fuel will not completely fill the bowl. My 59 2x4 never did. Thank you for clarifying. When I first installed it, and it was leaking, gas was filling the bowl completely, so I was under the impression completely full was the norm. Seeing it only fill 1/2 way made me think I was not getting enough gas from the fuel pump.
I would think the best method to prove your FI unit is functional is to manually add several ounces of fuel to the fuel meter and test for Run. A very small syringe into the vent may be a way. If it runs, then your engine pump is suspect.Where is the vent? I'm just now learning about these FI units, and want to make sure I add the fuel to the correct place. Is it here, where the rubber hose is?
Then use a fuel pressure gauge on the engine pump to verify 5-6 psi during crank. Thank you for clarifying how much pressure the gas should have coming from the fuel pump. I has anticipated it to be greater than that.
I suppose it's possible your engine pump went bad during your testing. Unfortunate, but you'll want to prove that after verifying nozzle flow with fuel in the fuel meter.
One other thought about your initial testing. What year are we talking about? Is your filter the large canister type with screw on can? If so it takes much cranking to fill that then the fuel meter. 1960. Yes, it normally has the large metal canister type with screw-on can installed. I put the glass bowl on temporarily so I could make sure gas was indeed filling up the cannister, and at what rate. And, I knew the canister was smaller and would take less cranking to fill.
And a very difficult question for me to ask, please don't take offense.... Is there gas in the tank? No offense taken, it's easy to miss the simplest things sometimes when we are in the midst of a very frustrating problem. Yes, I have almost 3/4 of tank currently.
Okay I follow where the confusion may have been. Good explanation,
The hardest part about this type of problem is you cannot easily see fuel in the fuel meter. If it's there and none coming out of the nozzles, it's likely anti-siphon solenoid, which as we know is where I headed.
So I suggest adding some fuel. It's a roundabout way of checking for fuel to nozzle flow versus taking the entire FM cover off. The problem removing the FM cover is that it could compromise the gasket then that makes things worse.
The VENT.
Yes, that 90* angle tube is the vent. Here are a few photos of a FM cover showing the vent on both sides.
Here are a few inside the FM,
Underside of cover showing float and needle/seat.
If you add fuel to the vent try just a little at a time as you don't want to overfill. Maybe a ounce or 2 to start and see if you get any nozzle flow. But for the HP pump to work right I think it needs complete submersion. Not sure how many ounces that entails.
If you do get nozzle flow, then you're still not out of the woods so to speak. I suppose it's also possible that the FM float could be stuck closed when moving back to your place. Probably unlikely but just another scenario to think about.
You still want to verify engine fuel pump with a pressure test if you get to that point in diagnosis. You don't want to change a fuel pump for no reason, plus they're getting harder to get these days.
If you add fuel to the vent try just a little at a time as you don't want to overfill. Maybe a ounce or 2 to start and see if you get any nozzle flow. But for the HP pump to work right I think it needs complete submersion. Not sure how many ounces that entails.
I started with putting 1 once into the vent, cranked a few times, and nothing from the #1 cylinder spider line. Then tried 2 ounces, same result. Then 3 ounces, still no flow. Then hooked the line back up and cranked 6 more times - the car still didn't start. So gas is not making it out of the fuel meter to the nozzles, unless I need to add more through the vent. When I added the first 2 ounces, I swear I could hear it hit dry bottom.
I then used a multimeter and tested the wires from the connection Tom mentioned to their terminals - the ballast resistor and S terminal of the starter solenoid - and verified continuity on the wires. For the second time, I then put the ignition switch in the ON position (not START) and put a test light on the ballast resistor wire and verified it's getting power. I also confirmed again that in the ON position the solenoid under the plenum "clicks" to show that it's being activated.
I don't know what else to check or test at this point. In the past 8 days I've spent nearly 30 hours out in the garage trying to get the car to run and it just will not. I feel absolutely, completely, defeated. I don't know of anything else to do but ask Tom if I can take the FI unit back up to him and have it bench tested again to make sure everything is still working like it should, like it did when I left his place.
If you add fuel to the vent try just a little at a time as you don't want to overfill. Maybe a ounce or 2 to start and see if you get any nozzle flow. But for the HP pump to work right I think it needs complete submersion. Not sure how many ounces that entails.
I started with putting 1 once into the vent, cranked a few times, and nothing from the #1 cylinder spider line. Then tried 2 ounces, same result. Then 3 ounces, still no flow. Then hooked the line back up and cranked 6 more times - the car still didn't start. So gas is not making it out of the fuel meter to the nozzles, unless I need to add more through the vent. When I added the first 2 ounces, I swear I could hear it hit dry bottom.
I then used a multimeter and tested the wires from the connection Tom mentioned to their terminals - the ballast resistor and S terminal of the starter solenoid - and verified continuity on the wires. For the second time, I then put the ignition switch in the ON position (not START) and put a test light on the ballast resistor wire and verified it's getting power. I also confirmed again that in the ON position the solenoid under the plenum "clicks" to show that it's being activated.
I don't know what else to check or test at this point. In the past 8 days I've spent nearly 30 hours out in the garage trying to get the car to run and it just will not. I feel absolutely, completely, defeated. I don't know of anything else to do but ask Tom if I can take the FI unit back up to him and have it bench tested again to make sure everything is still working like it should, like it did when I left his place.
Looking at it from a "no knowledge" point of view; Why can't you leave the key on, then use a power drill to drive the high pressure pump until you get some fuel coming out of the #1 spider line. A drill will sure drive the pump faster than a cranking engine.
Looking at it from a "no knowledge" point of view; Why can't you leave the key on, then use a power drill to drive the high pressure pump until you get some fuel coming out of the #1 spider line. A drill will sure drive the pump faster than a cranking engine.
If you do this test, STOP the drill at the very first instant you see fuel at the #1 nozzle line.
Remember, the other seven nozzles will also be spraying fuel and you DO NOT want to risk hydrolocking the engine.
This sounds a bit too risky for my liking. Also, don’t I need the second solenoid to get power as well, the one that only receive power when the ignition switch is in the START position? This one - WHEN THE KEY IS TURNED TO THE START POSITION. This serves the SAME function as the cranking solenoid valve, EXCEPT when no power goes to it, it is SOLIDLY closed and prevents manifold vacuum from going to the main diaphragm. Unlike a bad cranking signal valve, which passes manifold vacuum to the main diaphragm, the closed elec solenoid solidly cuts off the manifold vacuum to the main diaphragm.
This sounds a bit too risky for my liking. Also, don’t I need the second solenoid to get power as well, the one that only receive power when the ignition switch is in the START position? This one - WHEN THE KEY IS TURNED TO THE START POSITION. This serves the SAME function as the cranking solenoid valve, EXCEPT when no power goes to it, it is SOLIDLY closed and prevents manifold vacuum from going to the main diaphragm. Unlike a bad cranking signal valve, which passes manifold vacuum to the main diaphragm, the closed elec solenoid solidly cuts off the manifold vacuum to the main diaphragm.
Hi, Shane……..man I feel your pain. If it weren’t for guys like Jim Lockwood and Tom @ DZ I probably would have gone back to a Holley!
My FI unit was off the car and I wanted to prime it b4 I put it on a new motor. Here is what Jim had me do…..remove the vent on top of the fuel meter. This vent is just front of the fuel line at the rear of the fuel meter. Vent has 4 screws into the fuel meter and a 1/4” bolt also attaching it to the plenum. Pour 1/2 cup of fuel in the top of the fuel bowl thru the 3/4” hole in the top of the bowl. Reassemble. Attach 12 volts to the anti siphon valve and spin the hi pressure pump with a drill. Then if it doesn’t spray fuel it would point toward the anti siphon solenoid.
It’s not a hugh deal to remove the unit and I recognize my procedure would be some additional work but results are verifiable! And if it has to go back to Tom, you already have it off the
Just a thought, best o luck, you’ll get it. I’ve been 18 months screwing with an oil leak and fuel injection gremlins so persistence is the name of the game.
Hi, Shane……..man I feel your pain. If it weren’t for guys like Jim Lockwood and Tom @ DZ I probably would have gone back to a Holley! My FI unit was off the car and I wanted to prime it b4 I put it on a new motor. Here is what Jim had me do…..remove the vent on top of the fuel meter. This vent is just front of the fuel line at the rear of the fuel meter. Vent has 4 screws into the fuel meter and a 1/4” bolt also attaching it to the plenum. Pour 1/2 cup of fuel in the top of the fuel bowl thru the 3/4” hole in the top of the bowl. Reassemble. Attach 12 volts to the anti siphon valve and spin the hi pressure pump with a drill. Then if it doesn’t spray fuel it would point toward the anti siphon solenoid. It’s not a hugh deal to remove the unit and I recognize my procedure would be some additional work but results are verifiable! And if it has to go back to Tom, you already have it off the Just a thought, best o luck, you’ll get it. I’ve been 18 months screwing with an oil leak and fuel injection gremlins so persistence is the name of the game.
Did you ever get your fuel injection issues sorted out. Inquiring minds wanna know!??
Oh wow, sorry!. On Dec. 21 I made the 7 hour roundtrip from Plano, TX up to Mustang, OK to visit Tom Parsons again and have him bench test my FI unit again. Tom is great - I can't say that enough. Bench testing proved my FI worked as expected, so now I have to figure out the electrics part of the equation as it seems as if the anti-siphoning mod is not working correctly when the FI unit is installed on my car.
That major winter storm blew in on the 22nd, and being 14 degrees in my garage prevented me from working on the Vette. Then I headed out of town until yesterday, so simply put I have not had a chance to do anything since I got back from Tom's on Dec. 21.
This week I plan on setting the engine back to TDC on the #1 cylinder, pulling and dropping the distributor so the rotor points to the the #1 plug on the cap, and then making sure I have 12 volts on the driver side of the ballast resistor when the ignition switch is in the ON position, to power the anti-siphoning mod. While I was out of town last week I ordered an new ignition switch just in case it is the culprit.
I hope to get all of that done after work each day this week, and I will then update this thread. I'm thankful there are folks still watching it and my back in order to help me get my 60' running and back on the road. Thanks a million y'all.
If you want a quick check to see if it is an injector/solenoid issue vs Ignition problems, just pull the vent hose off of the top of fuel meter and squirt a little gas directly into plenum. If ignition system is good, it will start momentarily till gas is gone. If it starts you know it is an injector/solenoid issue. If it doesn't start, look for ignition issues.
then making sure I have 12 volts on the driver side of the ballast resistor when the ignition switch is in the ON position, to power the anti-siphoning mod.
Try connecting the positive power wire for the solenoid direct to the positive side of the battery. Purpose is to make sure you're getting 12volt to the solenoid.
The reason I suggested to try connecting the positive side directly to the battery is you might be getting enough of a voltage drop at the ballast resistor while cranking that the solenoid is closing. When Tom Parsons bench tested your FI unit again how did he put power to your Solenoid???
Just a thought from a novice, my 57 had some similar symptoms where I thought my solenoid was bad.
The reason I suggested to try connecting the positive side directly to the battery is you might be getting enough of a voltage drop at the ballast resistor while cranking that the solenoid is closing. When Tom Parsons bench tested your FI unit again how did he put power to your Solenoid???
Just a thought from a novice, my 57 had some similar symptoms where I thought my solenoid was bad.
Tom suggested the same thing when I was at his house on the 21st. He too had a battery that he hooked up to when bench testing.
Last night I rolled the engine to 0 degrees on the timing marker and popped the distributor cap to ensure the rotor was pointing to the #1 plug wire on the cap, which is oriented at 7 o’clock when standing in front of the car and looking towards the engine bay. I also got the FI unit bolted down and hooked up one of its new wires to the S terminal of the starter solenoid.
After work today I’m going to hook the battery back up and use a volt meter to see how many volts are going to the drivers side of the ballast resistor when the ignition is in the ON pisition. It’s supposed to be 12, which is what the new anti siphoning solenoid requires. I’m also hoping to get the drive cable and fuel line reinstalled to the FI unit. Then I’m going to use an alligator clip jumper wire to connect the new anti siphoning solenoid directly to the battery, bypassing the ballast resistor altogether, and see if the FI unit starts receiving fuel.
Fingers crossed!
Still can't get the car started. And I know the FI unit and its modifications work as Tom bench tested it again for me a few days before Christmas and I saw it working with my own eyes.
After work today I reconnected the drive cable to the FI unit and distributor, reconnected the fuel line to the fuel filter canister (filled the canister 1/2 way with gas), and put an ounce of fuel into the fuel meter bowl via the vent nozzle on top of it.
I put a volt meter on the battery, 12.6. Put the ignition switch into ON and had 11.7 on the driver's side of the ballast resistor and 9.59 on the passenger side.
Had the anti siphoning solenoid hooked directly to the battery and could hear it "click" on. Tried to start the engine and nothing. Went back and double checked everything and tried cranking again - saw some smoke rising from the center of the engine bay, back near the firewall. I jumped out and disconnected the battery so fast I didn't pay attention to exactly where the smoke was coming from, and it had dissipated by the time I got around to the battery. The ballast resistor maybe? It's new.
Sigh......
The only thing I can think of next is to replace the ignition switch. I ordered a new one from Zip Corvette and it arrived yesterday.
Shane: At this point I would check just one more time by taking one of the easy to access spider lines loose at the nozzle to see if any fuel is flowing from the line. If the solenoid is opening, as you suspect, fuel should be flowing from the spider line.
After all the checks by you and Tom I doubt there is anything wrong with the unit which leaves electrical and or timing. Back in early December I could not get my new injected 383 started on the run stand and tried a lot of stuff first. Finally advanced the timing a smidge (CCW) and it fired up before I could get my finger off the start button! Consider that too, please.....let us know ....
Don't mean to question you expertise at all, but are you dead certain your engine is in time? Distributors don't usually drop completely back in place once removed because of the helical gears on the dist and cam. In my experience removing the dist always turns the oil pump backwards slightly then the oil pump won't engage the distributor slot to let the dist drop back in place where it needs to be. You probably already know this but just wanted to mention it as I have problems with this quite frequently.
Last edited by jwindarwin; 01-05-2023 at 11:14 PM.
Went back and double checked everything and tried cranking again - saw some smoke rising from the center of the engine bay, back near the firewall. I jumped out and disconnected the battery so fast I didn't pay attention to exactly where the smoke was coming from, and it had dissipated by the time I got around to the battery. The ballast resistor maybe? It's new.
Sigh......
The only thing I can think of next is to replace the ignition switch. I ordered a new one from Zip Corvette and it arrived yesterday.
Nothing you've written says "ignition switch" to me. Engine cranks and you've got Voltage on the hot side of the ballast resistor. Two indications the ignition switch is working correctly.
What is concerning, though, is the smoke you observed and you should track that down before doing anything else. Are there any burnt/melted wires? If it was the ballast, are the points stuck closed causing the ballast to dissipate excess heat? Point being, finding the origin of the smoke is your top priority.
Nothing you've written says "ignition switch" to me. Engine cranks and you've got Voltage on the hot side of the ballast resistor. Two indications the ignition switch is working correctly.
What is concerning, though, is the smoke you observed and you should track that down before doing anything else. Are there any burnt/melted wires? If it was the ballast, are the points stuck closed causing the ballast to dissipate excess heat? Point being, finding the origin of the smoke is your top priority.
Jim, the OP states "The ballast resistor maybe? It's new." A new ballast resistor will smoke once, the first time its powered up as a coating on the wire burns off. Same thing happens with new mechanical voltage regulators connected the first time, resistors on the back will smoke for a bit and stop. Normal.
This does not mean the OP does not have an electrical problem...
Jim, the OP states "The ballast resistor maybe? It's new." A new ballast resistor will smoke once, the first time its powered up as a coating on the wire burns off. Same thing happens with new mechanical voltage regulators connected the first time, resistors on the back will smoke for a bit and stop. Normal.
This does not mean the OP does not have an electrical problem...
Dan
You make a good point, Dan. But how new is new? The OP has been trying to get his car started since 12/15. Did it have the new ballast resistor on it then? If so, the coating should have burned off three weeks ago. So why is something smoking now? What changed?
You make a good point, Dan. But how new is new? The OP has been trying to get his car started since 12/15. Did it have the new ballast resistor on it then? If so, the coating should have burned off three weeks ago. So why is something smoking now? What changed?
The ballast resistor was installed prior to me starting this thread, while Tom was rebuilding the FI unit.
Also during that time I put on new plug wires (Packard style), new plugs, and a new ignition coil. I have used a spark tester in one of the plug wires to verify spark is reaching the plugs. Tom also restored my distributor, so the only piece of the ignition system that is not new is the ignition switch.
I got worried last night when I saw the smoke and stopped everything. I was home alone and didn't have anyone to help me track down its source (someone to crank the engine while someone else watches for the smoke). I hope to continue the investigation today, and crack open one of the copper spider fuel lines while my helper cranks the engine so I can see if I'm getting fuel to the nozzles now that the anti siphoning solenoid is connected directly to the battery.
12-18-2022, 05:23 PM
