soupdup

s
Should have included the fact that the brand was Goodyear, not BFG. Yes the Vette Shop decal is a reproduction. There are no Bill Thomas parts on the car. Just a cool decal

MrTrim

Rick,
Thanks for clearing up the mis-information. So who's aftermarket parts are they? The rear suspension stuff for sure is not as shipped from the factory. And your right, the Bill Thomas Decals are cool.
Regards,
Chris

soupdup

sending you email today

TCracingCA

My Father ran the same tires (Goodyears) on the street, and all of the burnouts he did, never got a shot of it lighting them up. Forever I had those Goodyears from back in the day mounted up on a set of 8 inch AR mags, and about 5 years ago, I took them off finally due to age, even though they looked great still, then one day I tossed them to make room.

My guess is that you have had to have had plenty of street duels, taking care of business. Looking at this car, I am sure you had a bunch of the best stuff on it.

TCracingCA

There are multiple theories on why Bill Thomas closed up in 1971, and he was very private about it. As far as Corvettes, about the only true innovation parts for our Corvettes to speak about then was shock development, drilled offset drilled bushings to set your alignment, Heavy duty Idler arms, and other items, Adjustable lower ball joints, etc. Nothing that came from the Bill Thomas operation.

The general statement was he has left the car industry for non-car endeavors. One day I hope there is a book on him, and more of what happened comes out. I see now that guys are attempting to give Chevrolet development credit toward the Cheetah, I don' think so as it was him and Don Edmonds. The Nickey thing wasn't cost effective to ship Camaro's out to the West Coast, so that relationship dried up in 1969 when Nickey partnered with Harrell.

TCracingCA

Pictures????

MrTrim

[QUOTE=TCracingCA;1604893915]Pictures????[/QUOTE
Derek,
I'll post some once I get the car home. I have a few now but I need to clean them up before I post them.
Chris

joe58

there is a Bill Thomas web site at

https://billthomascheetah.com/home/

here is a screen shot of the Don Steves page

DZAUTO

With all of these comments about Bill Thomas's development of automotive performance, I know that he did multiple upgrades and improvements to the Rochester FI units. I have one of his cut in half, finned top plenums (on a SB400 in the 56) which was heavily ported and welded together to improve flow.
Does anyone have a clue how many of the early units had this done to them?

jim lockwood

Not a clue, Tom.

I've got two plenums which have been cut open so the runners could be modified. I have no way to know if either, neither, or both were done under the auspices of Bill Thomas.

I used one of these as the foundation for the mongrel FI I made up when I started developing my anti-perc modifications.






With thousands of miles on this unit, I'm confident saying the shortened runners hurt mid range performance. A bone stock FI with normal tuned runners in the plenum, pulls harder, according to my seat-of-the-pants meter.l

Still, I think the welded plenum looks kinda kewel.

As I get time, I'm creating another FI mongrel using the second cut and welded plenum. No pictures of it, yet. The fuel meter is a Pontiac refugee. The high pressure pump, which has gigantic gears, might be a Buick refugee.

FYI, your top picture of a cut/welded FI unit is of the FI from the Jerry Austin/Bob Bondurant RPO 684 non-airbox '57. I made that picture when I rebuilt that unit in 2002.

Jim

TCracingCA

I started my own Registry on cars with Bill Thomas modified Fuel Injections as I have one of those cars! I dont have the FI unit thou!e
w
Also Bill Thomas wasnt the only one out here doing these! I know of at least 5 guys doing these back in the

jim lockwood

Can/Will you post their names?

DZAUTO

I understand that Thomas was not the only person invomved in modifying early FI units, but it seems he seem to get the lion's share of recognition.
At a CUPER CHEVY event back in the 80s, Hayden Proffit examined my FI unit and said he could tell for sure that it was one of the units that he and Thomas modified.



Also, as Jim mentioned, MOST PROBABLY, the shortened ram tubes have an reduced effect on low end performance. But the shorter tubes were NOT a concern for low end. They were intended to improve upper rpm performance. Now, with that said, since my FI unit is on a healthy SB400, I feel the 400+cubes more than compensates for any low end loss on my engine.

jim lockwood

It's an ill-advised modification, in my opinion.

I simulated the effect of shortening the runners with Engine Analyzer 3.0. I found NO benefit until nearly 8000 RPM and then it was so slight as to not be worth the trouble. Maybe 5 HP increase.

So mid range is poorer and the high RPM benefit is negligible.

It's a lose-lose modification.

DZAUTO

YA, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, I got a Bill Thomas modified FI unit on the 56! That HAS TO BE worth 50-75hp right there---------------------------at idle. And for sure, LOTS of braggin rights!

jim lockwood

And that's exactly why I like the rough, ugly welded plenum on my mongrel FI!

Just wait until I start posting pictures of Mongrel-2, it's modified plenum, and other goofy parts.


Edit: Lot's of folks notice the ugly welding on Mongrel-1. One or two have even known what it represents. NO ONE has ever asked about the even uglier brass clamp which secures the air cleaner adapter to the air meter. Clearly it's incorrect!

TCracingCA

Dick Takashima did a bunch of them. He was a friend and long time GRA member, slalom competitor. Didn't do them, back in the day.
Chris Wickerham, Have to look up the spelling on his name (BP racer)
Vic Hubbard had a guy up North, would have to try to look that up
Norm Burger wrote the Fuel Injection manual with Bill Thomas, he played with them, he was Mickey Thompsons race tuner.
Blairs did some for Chevrolet's in general
Futo & sons I think played with it.


In my Fathers old collection of Magazines from the 1950s, I know there was a how to do it in one of those. Those are super fragile, don't like to touch them unless absolutely necessary as the pages just flake in my hands. They sat in the garage too long. One day plan to grab what I want, and trash them.

Some of these you can't necessarily call their units production, more custom work on request.

jim lockwood

Don't know him.
Last name is Wickersham. He retired several years back. When active, he was the "go to" guy for race prepped FI
Would that be Larry Anthony? If so, it's been 20+ years since I've heard anything about him.
I've heard that name.
Not familiar with this one.
I've never heard of the Futos doing any high performance work. But who knows....

DZAUTO

I think for the most part, Brian Futo and son primarily do factory style FI work. Also, I know that Brian has done some Pont FI work-------------------and hates 'um!

Several years ago, when I was trying to accumulate parts to build a dual air meter unit for the 56, I talked to Chris Wikersham and he gave me some good info. Unfortunately, I never came up with the needed parts, and now I think I won't pursue a dual air meter unit. I'd LOVE to have the one that once was on Rich Mason's SR2. So I guess I'll just stay with my Bill Thomas unit.

Norm Burger, as I always understood it, was one of the best go to FI guys in the country.

TCracingCA

Many of you know i like to dive into the tales, the long lost stories, the ones needing research. I am not a Fuel Injection guy per se, but thought I would throw in.

I am glad the Vic Hubbard operation and their fuelie guy was remembered. I was rusty on the name, but knowledgable member nailed it. Saved me time looking for that.

Dick Takashima was a guy heavy into the SCCSCC Slalom Championships when our cars were at their fullest level of development. My friend had some articles done on him, but basically he took up the banner after the Fuelie greats of fame. He did both Fuel Injection work and Carbs. His customers were referred to by Guldstand and even Hooper, and others. I had sat around with him talking tech many a time, on ultimate cornering (dry sumping our C2 cars, carb slosh foam, internal oil control, etc. etc. etc., you name it). He would beat you, and then tell you his secrets, and offer to help you, make your car faster. I will post a few pictures of his cars, when I get onto a real computer, but most of you have seen the car, with the Chaparral styled high wings. We had this relationship where I egged him on about coming up and Canyon racing, and he used to try to get me to show up to kill cones. I would say he took over where many left off, but the market for custom hot rod work had kind of died.


There is so much history overshadowed by the overall car Mecca happening in Socal.

Chris W. a perennial front runner, starting in the 1960s at the earliest days. I never met him. I have many race records, and pictures of this guy competing.

Futo, I think I have a Magazine of them modifying FI units or maybe it was a performance tune or blueprint. I remember like a port and polish, but I would have to go pull literature. I have a whole bunch of 1950s Magazines formerly belonging to my Dad, all of the classic ones, and less known rags. They were in the garage too long, and when I leaf thru any, they crumble into pieces, so I hate to touch them. I think one day I will do so, and take info I want out of them, maybe scan and then trash them. This outfit, I would put their knowledge up on par with anyone.

Norm Burger, I got tired of all of the experts lack of recognition, so I introduced a long lost prominent figure to Corvette Forum. He was one of Mickey Thompsons closest friends, and also Don Steves.This is a guy that was there when Mickey did his Bonneville run with the four engined streamliner, and there with these earliest C2 1963 racing Z06 cars. Much of that has been forgotten, so I posted research and remembrance of some of the history. Mickey actually went to Don Steves for Cars, like the 1963 Z06 one that was all mixed up with the Allstate Sears tire campaign. by the Corvette experts. Norm was in the ownership chain of these cars, three of them.

This thread shows me that some of the history research I have shared in other threads, absolutely isn't read by some. I see the Elite Corvette Club throwing out facts, unsubstaniated from any source other than, a vague poor memory, testimonial. I at first was torn on sharing my references and source material, mostly from vintage literature, other sources, as I have had it taken and used for financial gain or fame by other famed Corvette personalities. They did none of the research, but just use stuff to increase their old boys club status.

The afterlife history of the Silver Z06 (known as the Krause car) and the White 427 completely were missing the Norm Burger Ownerships, just a mention of him selling the former 427 Corvette MKII only, and identified with the wrong one. They had a 50/50 guess, I guess! The afterlife was his Chapter after Chevrolet outed Mickey Thompson. Interesting histories, like Guldstrand flipping his 1963 Blue Roadster, so to not be out of the SCCA points running, Norm lent him the car, while they were putting together a new 1964 Roadster. Norm basically was Bill Thomas's mentor, but Bill took the work to a new level. Norm did the first Fuel Injection book together with Bill Thomas, Norm wrote a fuel injection article for Hot Rod I have shared. His last competitive race as a Driver was basically the 1962 Pomona (one month after Riverside) with his former Don Steves 1963 White car, meant for Dan Gurney.

All of these guys in this era were part of a Club called Corvette Super Sports, but it was a pseudo Race meeting group that handled the Politics of Cal Club. There were two camps, and this group's members (meetings held at Don Steves Chevrolet) were Gurney, Shelby, MacDonald, Bill Thomas, Guldstrand, Burger, Phil Hill for a time, Mickey Thompson and on and on. This is the Club of of Socal competitors, the core to keep Cal Club from being swallowed by the National SCCA, the other group wanted to let the SCCA run things. The SS guys also gathered the enthusiast clubs to do corner work, and flagging, corrals, etc.etc. etc. They caused Riverside to get the international attention it got. A lessor know fact to show the level of relationship was like at that first Riverside race of Z06 cars in October, the Mickey Thompson crew did the pit work for Hooper, and also Don Steves Davie MacDonalds #00 car. It was supposed to be a two team, four car effort, but things happened. Funny story from Shelby, was as the Times weekend was approaching, he skipped some meetings to avoid inquiries about the Cobra. Norm's continued work on Race Fuel injection went into the 1964 65 season, where they were running in like the undercard event for GTs at the Times Grand Prix weekend, these two Norm Burger Corvettes piloted by Krause and Hooper. One famed picture was them showing up mocking the Shelby guys, wearing Cobra and Shelby gear. They were competitive to a higher level, showing respectably against Cobras and Modified Sports Racers. He sold the Krause silver car that was originally the Harry Mann received car, entered for the 1963 October Riverside. He kept the White 427 car and it became the Silver 427 Corvette.

NOt finished, will do so later.