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I agree. There seems to something of a working man's hero vibe in this discussion and an almost complete lack of understanding of what engineers actually do. Engineers don't spend time (or shouldn't) with existing designs unless they are new to a discipline. They are there to "engineer" solutions to problems of existing designs or to design completely new products. A tech might know everything there is about a particular engine, but can that tech design a brand new engine from the ground up? Certainly not. That's what the engineer does. And it's usually not one engineer but a team of engineers who have to make a myriad of tradeoffs to meet all the competing demands driven by cost, timing, and quality.
Very well expressed.
All the engineers on this forum, there are several and I am one, are likely nodding in agreement with what you wrote.
The non-engineers, and there are several of them also, may not grasp what you wrote. That's OK. It's not a criticism of non-engineers. What engineers do can be obscure and hard to grasp. That's just the way it is.
I agree. There seems to something of a working man's hero vibe in this discussion and an almost complete lack of understanding of what engineers actually do. Engineers don't spend time (or shouldn't) with existing designs unless they are new to a discipline. They are there to "engineer" solutions to problems of existing designs or to design completely new products. A tech might know everything there is about a particular engine, but can that tech design a brand new engine from the ground up? Certainly not. That's what the engineer does. And it's usually not one engineer but a team of engineers who have to make a myriad of tradeoffs to meet all the competing demands driven by cost, timing, and quality.
Along with Jim, I totally, completely, 100% agree with this.
Engineers are responsible for designing and developing projects.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, too many times, I PERSONALLY have experienced, or observed something which was designed by an engineer and it DID NOT and WOULD NOT work or fit. Then, when the problem or issue was presented to the engineer---------------------HE (and in some cases she) ABSOLUTELY REFUSED TO ADMIT THAT IT WOULD NOT WORK AS ENGINEERED OR DESIGNED! Then (so to speak) when the engineer was taken by the hand to the problem and shown that the engineered design would not work, he/she found it unacceptable that what was engineered would not work as designed.
You just CANNOT tell some engineers that they don't know what they are doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND, unfortunately, because of their engineering incompetence, I have seen engineers promoted to a supervisory or management position ABOVE highly qualified engineers, simply to get them out of the way, instead of discharging them!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have one son who has his PE, in addition to 3 degrees (math, physics, engineering), has an extremely high level of intuitive mechanical aptitude and his engineering supervisor is an idiot and all the executives above that supervisor know he is an idiot, but will not discharge him.
Thus, I am HIGHLY SELECTIVE in my assessment of engineers.
Kelly Johnson was probably one of the best engineering minds in the field of aviation. He moved the engineers and their desks onto the hanger floor where the workers and technical people were so that immediate interfacing could be done to efficiently accomplish a project that was being designed by engineers. I would love to have known him personally.
I agree. There seems to something of a working man's hero vibe in this discussion and an almost complete lack of understanding of what engineers actually do. Engineers don't spend time (or shouldn't) with existing designs unless they are new to a discipline. They are there to "engineer" solutions to problems of existing designs or to design completely new products. A tech might know everything there is about a particular engine, but can that tech design a brand new engine from the ground up? Certainly not. That's what the engineer does. And it's usually not one engineer but a team of engineers who have to make a myriad of tradeoffs to meet all the competing demands driven by cost, timing, and quality.
Kelly Johnson was probably one of the best engineering minds in the field of aviation. He moved the engineers and their desks onto the hanger floor where the workers and technical people were so that immediate interfacing could be done to efficiently accomplish a project that was being designed by engineers. I would love to have known him personally.
So, too, would I have liked to have known him. I don't know what I would have said to him. I probably would have come off as a babbling idiot. I don't care.
(DZAUTO) This is the Harley Earl SR2 (later owned by Rich Mason with dual air meter unit above). UNFORTUNATELY, the new owner has it tucked away from public view and time on the street!
I was lucky enough to see Rich Mason's SR2 and another special C1 in around 2002. The California Mille pulled in at a restaurant where I was having lunch and I rushed out to scope out the cars. A portable feast for sure!
Tempting....I do love Palo Alto....except the part where its in California...
I actually considered getting out of the Navy years ago to transition into the Air National Guard to fly the combat search and rescue HH-60s. One of the units I talked to was there in Palo Alto at Moffett....the first question they ask you isnt "How much flight time do you have?", or "How many deployments have you done?" The primary vetting criteria is "How do you plan to live in Palo Alto on a part time Guard salary?" A valid question that pretty much sealed the deal on my Air Force transition...I imagine the flying around that area is gorgeous!!
Too true. Housing prices keep regular people from living in Palo Alto these days. I just looked on Zillow and house prices here went up $61K just in the last month; my small house is worth 30 times what I bought it for forty years ago. I might've been the last geologist who could afford to move to this lovely but costly town. I too imagine that flying around here would be gorgeous, but after a lifetime of flying with bush pilots in the Alaska wilderness --- surely the best small-plane pilots in the world, with stunningly beautiful and grand scenery --- flying in an urban area with mostly amateur pilots around you is a no-go for me.
Along with Jim, I totally, completely, 100% agree with this.
Engineers are responsible for designing and developing projects.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, too many times, I PERSONALLY have experienced, or observed something which was designed by an engineer and it DID NOT and WOULD NOT work or fit. Then, when the problem or issue was presented to the engineer---------------------HE (and in some cases she) ABSOLUTELY REFUSED TO ADMIT THAT IT WOULD NOT WORK AS ENGINEERED OR DESIGNED! Then (so to speak) when the engineer was taken by the hand to the problem and shown that the engineered design would not work, he/she found it unacceptable that what was engineered would not work as designed.
You just CANNOT tell some engineers that they don't know what they are doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND, unfortunately, because of their engineering incompetence, I have seen engineers promoted to a supervisory or management position ABOVE highly qualified engineers, simply to get them out of the way, instead of discharging them!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have one son who has his PE, in addition to 3 degrees (math, physics, engineering), has an extremely high level of intuitive mechanical aptitude and his engineering supervisor is an idiot and all the executives above that supervisor know he is an idiot, but will not discharge him.
Thus, I am HIGHLY SELECTIVE in my assessment of engineers.
Kelly Johnson was probably one of the best engineering minds in the field of aviation. He moved the engineers and their desks onto the hanger floor where the workers and technical people were so that immediate interfacing could be done to efficiently accomplish a project that was being designed by engineers. I would love to have known him personally.
I've seen this also, but primarily in very large, established companies where there's seldom consequences of poor systems, schedule, and budgetary performance. Your examples Tom, are less about incompetent engineers, than incompetent leadership. As corporate layers multiply, leadership's connection to individual/project productivity gets diluted and sooner or later it impacts the company's reputation. Your example of Kelly was someone who was not only a creative driving force, but was also technically capable with a sense of his team's productivity. Companies with a short organizational path between the Chief Technical Officer and a Project Lead in this day and age have a strong competitive advantage. A healthy leadership team will tolerate an underperforming engineer for a while hoping to mature him. But inevitably he pulls down the organization and the engineering team's morale. Small to midsized, agile companies now have many advantages in a highly competitive environment. I know. Big companies are coming to us as a successful force multiplier for them to win more programs.
Along with Jim, I totally, completely, 100% agree with this.
Engineers are responsible for designing and developing projects.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, too many times, I PERSONALLY have experienced, or observed something which was designed by an engineer and it DID NOT and WOULD NOT work or fit. Then, when the problem or issue was presented to the engineer---------------------HE (and in some cases she) ABSOLUTELY REFUSED TO ADMIT THAT IT WOULD NOT WORK AS ENGINEERED OR DESIGNED! Then (so to speak) when the engineer was taken by the hand to the problem and shown that the engineered design would not work, he/she found it unacceptable that what was engineered would not work as designed.
You just CANNOT tell some engineers that they don't know what they are doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND, unfortunately, because of their engineering incompetence, I have seen engineers promoted to a supervisory or management position ABOVE highly qualified engineers, simply to get them out of the way, instead of discharging them!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have one son who has his PE, in addition to 3 degrees (math, physics, engineering), has an extremely high level of intuitive mechanical aptitude and his engineering supervisor is an idiot and all the executives above that supervisor know he is an idiot, but will not discharge him.
Thus, I am HIGHLY SELECTIVE in my assessment of engineers.
Kelly Johnson was probably one of the best engineering minds in the field of aviation. He moved the engineers and their desks onto the hanger floor where the workers and technical people were so that immediate interfacing could be done to efficiently accomplish a project that was being designed by engineers. I would love to have known him personally.
Yikes...This conversation has certainly evolved to say the least. So, to further expound on my comments that I have a Mech Eng degree, I have worked for the same company for almost 25 years and at a manufacturing plant for the last 20. So, I think I have a good perspective on things. Our facility here is not huge and has 5 degreed engineers on-site. The best thing that we try to do is get all of the new corporate engineers in our group to spend time here at the manufacturing site so they understand how their designs impact what we are doing. Even with that, we still have far too many instances of what is designed can not be repeatedly built with high quality. There is a brilliant ME that works in our design team at our HQ that has some really great ideas but the ability to assemble more than 5 at his workbench is really not likely yet alone introduce them into large scale production. It's certainly a balance between what is a really great design and the ablity to make it 1000s of times...
Also directed @DZAUTO I have always enjoyed your posts about the B26 marauder and your work on your cars and FI units. As we all get older, what is the veil of secrecy that is placed over the dual air meter FI units? Why so much cloak and dagger stuff about photos and such? Maybe I don't get it, but I am not sure why this stuff shouldn't be shared with folks that have interest in the hobby and want to carry the torch onward....I also respect that some folks want to keep things private, but...
(DZAUTO) This is the Harley Earl SR2 (later owned by Rich Mason with dual air meter unit above). UNFORTUNATELY, the new owner has it tucked away from public view and time on the street!
I was lucky enough to see Rich Mason's SR2 and another special C1 in around 2002. The California Mille pulled in at a restaurant where I was having lunch and I rushed out to scope out the cars. A portable feast for sure!
Sadly, I suspect one day our precious C1& C2’s will return to the old barns where we found them! C8 may take a while longer.
When electrics take over, fossil fuel is banned and no one left to work on these, they deteriorate to useless piles of rubble. It’s like the interest in Model A’s and Model T’s 60 years ago compared to their interest today.
Really hope I’m wrong tho!
That bronze 56 SR1 belongs to a very dear friend of mine. I am intimately familiar with it. And there is a lengthy NCRS story behind it that generated a lot of serious heartburn regarding its authenticity. It took 10yrs before NCRS FINALLY acknowledged that it was an honest to God, genuine St Louis assembly line built Corvette. BUT, they finally admitted that they were mistaken.
My friend that has the bronze SR1 also owns the 4th SR2, as well as some other unique cars.
Here is his 4th SR2 (known as the McClean SR2). It has an all alum 350 (rare GM block) with a Rochester FI which I built for it.
Back when Rich Mason owned the SR2, he sent me lots of pictures of the dual air meter unit because I wanted to more or less copy his and build one for the SB400 in the 56. I've never been able to come up with the needed parts for a reasonable price.
Yes, there are a few young folks who know how to twist a wrench, but that percent is dwindling every day.. My next birthday is 80. Current project is a 100% DIY 54 Corvette--I am building the frame, and even the upholstery . Body currently off and underway with the chassis. LS and some tricks. Planning on 2000 lbs and 36MPG. I have my '56 Vette for 60 years and now 300,000 miles. Also a 54 Chevy 5 window and even a '56 Ford 8N tractor. Yep--Old, but still kickin'
Yikes...This conversation has certainly evolved to say the least. So, to further expound on my comments that I have a Mech Eng degree, I have worked for the same company for almost 25 years and at a manufacturing plant for the last 20. So, I think I have a good perspective on things. Our facility here is not huge and has 5 degreed engineers on-site. The best thing that we try to do is get all of the new corporate engineers in our group to spend time here at the manufacturing site so they understand how their designs impact what we are doing. Even with that, we still have far too many instances of what is designed can not be repeatedly built with high quality. There is a brilliant ME that works in our design team at our HQ that has some really great ideas but the ability to assemble more than 5 at his workbench is really not likely yet alone introduce them into large scale production. It's certainly a balance between what is a really great design and the ablity to make it 1000s of times...
What you are describing is the difference between the DFMEA required by a design engineer and the PFMEA required by a production engineer. There should always be a handoff process that links the two. If you have designs that are not able to be repeated during production, you have a process problem, and it is as much the production engineer's fault as it is the design engineer's fault. It is also definitely a management problem.
Sadly, I suspect one day our precious C1& C2’s will return to the old barns where we found them! C8 may take a while longer.
When electrics take over, fossil fuel is banned and no one left to work on these, they deteriorate to useless piles of rubble. It’s like the interest in Model A’s and Model T’s 60 years ago compared to their interest today.
Really hope I’m wrong tho!
Likely the other way around. New cars today are built to be disposable. There are many 20-25 year old cars that you can not buy replacement parts for especially computers so hopefully there will be some service around by that time to refurbish them. Our old cars will always run because there is already a vast network of replacement parts as long as you can find someone to work on it or there will still be YouTube videos to show you how to fix it yourself.
Also directed @DZAUTO I have always enjoyed your posts about the B26 marauder and your work on your cars and FI units. As we all get older, what is the veil of secrecy that is placed over the dual air meter FI units? Why so much cloak and dagger stuff about photos and such? Maybe I don't get it, but I am not sure why this stuff shouldn't be shared with folks that have interest in the hobby and want to carry the torch onward....I also respect that some folks want to keep things private, but...
Originally Posted by Vette60View Post
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Also directed @DZAUTO I have always enjoyed your posts about the B26 marauder and your work on your cars and FI units. As we all get older, what is the veil of secrecy that is placed over the dual air meter FI units? Why so much cloak and dagger stuff about photos and such? Maybe I don't get it, but I am not sure why this stuff shouldn't be shared with folks that have interest in the hobby and want to carry the torch onward....I also respect that some folks want to keep things private, but...
If these old cars in original form retain interest and don't become an expensive government regulated and taxed hassle to own and operate into the future, there will always be people who can fix them. Gone are the days when the DIY guy had to study paper manuals and figure most things out for themselves. Truth is, self education on restoration and modification has never been better or easier than it is now.
Likely the other way around. New cars today are built to be disposable. There are many 20-25 year old cars that you can not buy replacement parts for especially computers so hopefully there will be some service around by that time to refurbish them. Our old cars will always run because there is already a vast network of replacement parts as long as you can find someone to work on it or there will still be YouTube videos to show you how to fix it yourself.
In my earlier days of junkyarding, 70's - 80's, most of the cars had around 100K on them when they were junked. In the midwest in the 70's, it was a rare sight indeed to see a 50's car still on the road.
Along with Jim, I totally, completely, 100% agree with this.
Engineers are responsible for designing and developing projects.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, too many times, I PERSONALLY have experienced, or observed something which was designed by an engineer and it DID NOT and WOULD NOT work or fit. Then, when the problem or issue was presented to the engineer---------------------HE (and in some cases she) ABSOLUTELY REFUSED TO ADMIT THAT IT WOULD NOT WORK AS ENGINEERED OR DESIGNED! Then (so to speak) when the engineer was taken by the hand to the problem and shown that the engineered design would not work, he/she found it unacceptable that what was engineered would not work as designed.
You just CANNOT tell some engineers that they don't know what they are doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND, unfortunately, because of their engineering incompetence, I have seen engineers promoted to a supervisory or management position ABOVE highly qualified engineers, simply to get them out of the way, instead of discharging them!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have one son who has his PE, in addition to 3 degrees (math, physics, engineering), has an extremely high level of intuitive mechanical aptitude and his engineering supervisor is an idiot and all the executives above that supervisor know he is an idiot, but will not discharge him.
Thus, I am HIGHLY SELECTIVE in my assessment of engineers.
Kelly Johnson was probably one of the best engineering minds in the field of aviation. He moved the engineers and their desks onto the hanger floor where the workers and technical people were so that immediate interfacing could be done to efficiently accomplish a project that was being designed by engineers. I would love to have known him personally.
The situations your refer to are indeed true, but are common in life in general regardless of discipline or degree. Those problems exist across the spectrum and are not limited to engineers, they're common across the spectrum of people in general. Just my observations from 79 years of life and experience through a variety of positions and educational levels . . . .
01-05-2022, 01:58 PM
