kellsdad

I recently installed a VintageAir system only to discover that there is no way to modulate the heat with their vacuum controlled on-off heater valve. I'm toying with the idea of replacing that valve with a cable controlled valve that will allow me to better control the volume of water through the heater core. In order to select the best heater control valve, I need to know what direction the water flows through the core. Specifically, does the water flow out of the water pump fitting through the heater core and back to the intake manifold, or does it flow the opposite direction? Anyone know for sure?

SWCDuke

The coolant pump side of the heater core is the suction side. This means that coolant is pulled from the inlet manifold nipple, which is the hottest coolant, through the core and back to the coolant pump connection.

Duke

kellsdad

Duke -
Thanks.

tuxedo

Thought I would continue on with a heater question. I went driving the other day now that it is cold outside and noticed my heater would blow but would not send out hot air. Air seemed a little warmer than the outside cold air, but not much. Seemed like engine bay heat. The car is a 65 with a 5 year old heater core with factory a/c. No coolant/water leaks that I can see. I have been busy with other non car projects and have not had any real time to investigate. But after seeing this thread I thought I would ask you guys what you might think the problems could be. I have pulled out the heat **** and fan temp **** to activate the heater but again it seems like the fan is sending regular temp. air into the footwells throught the a/c vents. Any suggestions would be appreciated. THX :smash:


[Modified by tuxedo, 10:25 PM 12/8/2002]

SWCDuke

I'm not familiar with the HVAC control system on a '65 with A/C, but most systems have a heater core shut off valve that prevents hot coolant from flowing to the core unless the the controls are set for heat. If your system has one, it might be stuck closed. The '63 Corvette Shop Manual and '65 supplement should have the necessary information for you to troubleshoot the problem.

Also, it's possible that the system was modified somewhere along the line.

On non-A/C cars, hot coolant flows through the core at all times, but many owners install a valve to keep the interior cooler in the summer, as even with the heat door, closed there is a lot of heat that gets into the cockpit via leakage and the hot heater housing.

Duke

magicv8

The vacuum controlled valve that Duke mentioned hangs in front of the heater on two inches of hose. It is controlled by a small brass (GM) vacuum control behind the glove compartment that freezes up. LICorvette sells a plastic replacement (that can't be seen) that has worked well in my car for a dozen years. The control is operated by the temp cablebeing pushed all the way home, or being pulled out less than .2 inches. :rolleyes:

63 Aviator

Interesting. Very interesting indeed. Saying as how I have the exact same VintageAir system sitting uninstalled in a box in my garage. I was planning on installing it in my '63 Vert in a couple of days.

So the obvious question is... Why the heck isn't their vacuum controlled heater valve setup working? Do you think that you may have a vacuum leak? Or something specific to your installation.

Or is it something that is going to happen to anyone and everyone who attempts to install the system? Due to it being a flawed system design to begin with.

Obviously I need to know if I should install the valve like you're talking about before I install mine. As I assume that it's probably a pain to install that valve. If one waits until after they have installed the system.

Also assuming that you do get yours going. I would really really appreciate it if you could clue me in as to exactly what you did to make it all work. In other words... What parts did you buy? And where did you buy them? And exactly what had to be done step by step to install the valve.

Or whatever else that you may end up having to do to it. If the valve idea turns out to be a no-go.

Thanks Bunches
Gary

kellsdad

Gary - I'm happy to help a fellow 63 Corvette owner and fellow aviator. There is, in my opinion, a design flaw in the VintageAir kit. The heater control valve is activated by an electric switch when the heat **** is pulled slightly out, and it is operated by a vacuum line that opens the valve completely. It is an all open or all closed valve, and in my kit there was no way to modulate the temperature. I could choose either full cold (a/c compressor on and no water flow to the heater core) or full hot (a/c compressor off and full water flow to the heater core). I have just finished replacing the vacuum operated heater control valve with a cable controlled valve. I also bypassed the cable controlled a/c compressor switch for a small toggle switch under the dash. I can now turn the a/c compressor on or off without regard to where the heater control **** is positioned. I can also adjust the heater control valve to intermediate positions to better control the temperature of the heater core and, subsequently, the temperature of the air from the heater. I'll be testing the changes this weekend during a 200 mile cruise. If it works well, I'll pass along more details about the parts I used and the changes I made to the VintageAir kit.

63 Aviator

kellsdad - Well all right. I certainly appreciate the rapid response. And of course I will be awaiting the info after your road test. You're a true lifesaver and a half guy. One of the reasons why this board is so awesome.

So what do you fly guy? I'm an Apache attack helicopter pilot stationed at Ft. Campbell, KY.

Thanks Bunches
Gary


[Modified by 63 Aviator, 2:18 AM 12/13/2002]

vettes1st

Don't think I'll buy that V Air system now. Anything costing $2,000 ought to be better than on or off. As Dr. Phil would say "What were these people thinking"? I was at Ft. Campbell about 35 years ago, but I wasn't flying. I was jumping! :cheers:

magicv8

The big difference between the GM system and the Vintage is that my GM heater box has a large sheet metal diverter plate/valve to control the air mixture between cold air input and air flowing through the heater core. That's what the temp control operates. It just closes the door on the heater core. The whole heater box can get its air from the RH air vent, or the vent air deflector/valve flops over to recirculate inside air. :crazy:

63 Aviator

The actual cost was $1039 through Corvette Central. But still you're right about too much money to be having stuff like that going wrong.

So 35 years ago would have put you in the good old 101st Airborne in 1968. The year that the Tet Offensive was going down in Vietnam. So did you see any of that action?

I was too young for 'Nam. I came in in '76. I was one of those strange animals. A long hair (well a long hair until basic training anyway) who was totally behind the war. I might have been young dumb and full of ***. But I definitely wanted a piece of that action.

As it was I came in at 17 yrs old though. So there just was no way to pull it off. Since as you know the war winded down in '73.

Thanks Bunches
Gary

63 Aviator

magicv8 - Well without having actually physically looked at this stuff yet. My system is still sitting in the unopened box in the garage. You may have a good point.

In that maybe one could either gut the new heater box. And use the old stuff. Or at least attempt to utilize the old sheet metal diverter plate/valve on the new stuff.

Thanks Bunches
Gary

63 Aviator

vettes1st - You know that the 101st's mission has totally changed now. The division is now 100% Air Assault. I.E. It in fact has now patterned itself after the lessons learned in Vietnam.

And is now exactly what you had back in 'Nam. You have OH-58 Kiowa's replacing the OH-6's and the older OH-58's. The UH-1H Huey's have now been replaced by the UH-60 Blackhawk's. And the AH-1 Cobra Gunships have been replaced by AH-64 Apaches.

But yeh, it's 100% the same mission that was drawn up and battle tested the hard way in 'Nam. Air Mobility RULES huh??

Well I say that but there is a difference in the way that Apaches are utilized. In that even though we are stationed here with the scout and the lift guys. And we do perform the occasional air assault escort mission. The majority of our missions don't include them. And are instead attack missions. I.E. kill tanks, light armor, ADA, and SAM Sites (I flew on the mission in which the first rounds of the Gulf War were fired. Taking out that SA-6 SAM site so that the fast movers could come in.)

I came in as a Cobra crew chief. Ending up as an SSG Cobra Technical Inspector. And a Cobra Platoon Sgt. Then went to flight school in '83. I received a Cobra transition right after flight school. Then flew every model of Cobra that there was until '87 when I got my Apache transition.

Thanks Bunches
Gary

kellsdad

Gary -
I'm a retired Air Force pilot. I haven't flown actively for several years.
I completed the test drive today and have mixed results to report. First, the cable controlled heater valve worked well and allowed me to modulate the temperature satisfactorily. I have not yet sorted out the electric fan switch to my satisfaction. I'll explain what I did and why that is a problem.

First, I replaced the VA vacuum operated heater control with a cable operated valve (#74628) from Advance Auto parts. The keys to picking out the right valve are to get one which opens when the cable is pulled, and which has water flowing through it in the correct direction. In my case, I installed the valve in the hose that connects to the intake manifold with the cable bracket on the side nearest the intake manifold. It's possible that if the cable were routed differently, you would need a different valve. The store has a catalog showing a variety of valves with the brackets and flow directions marked.

As indicated in an earlier post, the original temperature control cable moves a door inside the original heater assembly when the **** is pulled out. The VA kit uses that same cable to activate an electric switch and move a door inside their heater assembly. The electric switch disconnects power to the a/c compressor when the heater **** is pulled out. The door merely directs air to either the heater vents only (when the **** is pulled out), or to all the vents (when the **** is pushed in). On my kit, the door did not have any noticable affect on the temperature of the air.

The original cable is not long enough to reach into the engine compartment where the heater control valve is located. If I were installing the kit from the beginning today, I would see if it is possible to locate the manual valve inside the heater box where it might be reached with the original control cable. As that was not an option for me, I opted to remove the orignal cable and sheath from the heater switch/**** assembly and replace it with a standard cable assembly from a manual choke kit. While the original cable was free to rotate within the **** assembly, my replacement was firmly attached to the ****. This applies torque to the **** causing it to resist turning. Right now, the **** stays in the low speed position and I cannot turn the fan off. When time allows, I will work on a solution to this ****/cable connection problem.

It still baffles me that VA would design a unit to work with no temperature modulation capability. I suggest you call them before you open your boxes and ask them to confirm or deny my understanding of how the system works.

63 Aviator

Tom-
Well all right. An extremely concise and useful beyond belief post. You are a lifesaver. I'm gonna try your idea about locating the manual valve inside the heater box.

I'm like you, I find it hard to believe that they would purposefully design the system that way. But thank God for this forum and for people such as yourself who don't know how to say no. Who only work in solutions! Lord only knows how many hours of grief and frustration that you just saved me from. I bow to the Master!

Thanks Bunches
Gary

JohnZ

Pilot here too - 7700TT, 4000 in helicopters. Remember UH-1B's? (now that's OLD airframes by now). Went through lots of them as gunships when I was C.O., 114th Avn Co, Bien Hoa (and lots of other places), 1963-64. Apaches must be a hoot - I trained in Hiller H-23's at Wolters in '62, then on to Hueys at Rucker, formed and trained the Co. at Riley, then went over. :cheers:

63 Aviator

John -
Oh yes the venerable B Model. What Vietnam War documentory would be complete without them. And sure I knew plenty of vets who flew them too. The old fire your rockets, see where they hit, and put a grease pencil mark on the windscreen. I think that the G Model Cobra guys used to do the same thing.

You guys certainly saw your share of poopie. Whether that be as an air escort to the Air Assault Insertion Missions or the whacked beyond belief Hunter Killer Teams.

I've got a film of a 1LT who was shot down 3 times in one day flying a little bird on one of those missions. The guy just kept going back to the same exact place. After the third time his CO said maybe we outa leave him there. I don't think that we have anything else for him to fly!

I've certainly heard my share of stories from the older guys as well. It was back when men could still be men in a time of war. All it was was one solid drunk from the time that you got back from your missions until pitch pull.

In Desert Storm it was no one goes anywhere. We stayed in GP medium tents out in the middle of the desert the entire time. And no booze whatsoever. No dirty magazines. They even made us take down our U.S. flags from in front of H.Q. And take off the American Flags off of our shoulders.

Wouldn't want to upset the sensitive Saudi's. HEELLLOOOO!!!??!! Last I heard I was here to save your butt MF!!!!!!!!!!! But NNNOOOOO!!

And we don't want to mention them having us turn in all of our war memorabilia. The AK-47's, SK-S's and etc. We reminded them that it was perfectly normal back in Nam. Simply weld the bolt back and send it home. But NNOOO!!

I went to flight school in '83. Back then we went to Ft Rucker, AL. And we all started out on the TH-55 Osage. Though I did know some guys through the years who did the Wolters and the Hiller thing.

I got about 72 hrs in UH-1H Huey's in flight school. I always did just love to death the sound of the rotor flap on those things when you took the power out.
But the time was strictly for the Primary Day stuff. Then for Instrument Flight.

Then for guys who knew up front that they wanted to fly guns after flight school. They made us switch our tracks to the scouts. So it was OH-58 Kiowa's for me after instruments. And I did my Primary Day stuff in them and then NVG (night vision goggle) stuff in them.

Then it was on to Cobra's after flight school. Man I was chompin at the bit to get into them. Saying as how I had been first a Cobra Crew Chief. Then a Cobra Plt Sgt. And a Cobra Tech Inspector for 7 1/2 yrs.

I knew my Cobra's forwards backwards and inside out. And let me tell you it literally saved my life twice through the years. After we suddenly started getting in tech inspectors who didn't know jack !

But yeh, I actually went back to the exact same unit that I had left in order to go to flight school. And got to fly the same birds that I had worked on for all of those years. And to fly some of the enlisted guys that had worked with me. IT WAS A HOOT!

But you know very quickly before I have to go. Let me just say that as I mentioned earlier. I for one was always behind the Vietnam War. But on behalf of what was way to many ungrateful to the core. Misguided, yellow bellied aholes. That took until Desert Storm to finally decide to honor you guys.

You guys were the poopie! I've never seen such a dedicated group of men since. You carried your nads around in wheelbarrows. Going in time after time after time into the absolute most withering fire fights beyond belief. Why? To save that poor GI who was taking an ungodly amount of fire and screaming his head off on that radio. HELLLPPP!! As you listen to the tell tell crackling of incoming AK rounds beyond belief almost totally drowning out his call. And you did day in and day out. You did with grace and style. And yet you new how to party too!

Desert Storm was an absolute joke in comparison. Since it was in the desert with no terrain to worry about. It was all who can shoot the farthest. We could. By bunches with everything that we had, artillery, tanks, MLRS's everything.

In the Apache we were lobbing in Hellfire Missiles from 8KM out. Whether it was SAM sites or tanks or whatever. It was always the same. We would watch them over our TADS (target aquisition and designation system). And it was quite clear up front and confirmed after the war in talking to the Iraqi POW's that they never saw us, or heard us.

All they new was suddenly everything around them is blowing up left and right. So they would un-butt their tanks or whatever left and right and run like nobodies business. Feet don’t fail me now! Which was fine by us we just wanted there equipment.

They gave up in droves. It got to be totally ridiculous. Because no one could complete a mission. For all of these tens of thousands of Iraqi's who wanted to surrender. We finally got smart and set up some CH-47 Chinooks to worry about them. And simply continued our missions.

Hardly risking life and limb beyond belief as you guys did in 'Nam. So once again for our nation just let me say I SALUTE YOU SIR!

Gary

JohnZ

Thanks - yup, it was a different kind of war; my outfit was H-K gunships, with a few "D"- model slicks for extraction support and Medics, long before it was on TV every night. We had a unit reunion about 20 years ago, and my old Crew Chief (who kept me from making some dumb mistakes early on) presented this to me on behalf of the rest of the unit - my "short career in a frame" :flag

63 Aviator

John-
Impressive to say the least. If only all of the uninformed civilians had any idea just what it took to get that stuff. Hunter Killer no less. The true wild childs of Nam. Go in until fired upon. Then return fire.

I mean that's what you did all day long. Keep flying directly over their heads. Until they fired at you. Then you had their asses! But of course while it sounds good at first blush. Of course one had to survive the initial problem of being fired upon didn't you?

Not exactly a trivial little thing. And hence the documentary that I have where the 1LT was shot down three times in one day attempting to do just that. In his Little Bird OH-6 Loch.

What it was was organized lunacy. And yes you do in fact carry your nads around in a wheelbarrow. WHAT A STALLION!!

Gary