provette67

For the new owner's sake I hope that the appraiser is very knowledgeable about this particular type of car. If the appraiser is the type like many who just come and take a look at some of the cosmetics of the car. Then fills out a pre printed fits every type of car form. Followed up by consulting one of the many joke "value guides" out on the web. This leads to a value that is as accurate as a 5yr old throwing a dart at a spinning wheel with values on it. That would not be fair for either side in this case.

GeneralT

The appraiser is very experienced with muscle and classic cars in general, and does of course have experience with C2 Corvettes but he his not a Corvette expert. I discussed this with him and he thought his Corvette knowledge was strong enough for what I wanted. However, I have not stated the problem as I want to see what he finds first. Do you think the trim tag issue is going to be unique to Corvettes, thus without him having specific C2 experience he wouldn't find it through the date code mismatch? The only Corvette specialty shop I can find around here is in the east Bay (30 miles away). I could call them for a reference?

Geoff

jbalch

The appraiser needs to be very well versed with "original" C2 trim tags and have the expertise to discern the difference(s) between original and reproductions. If you know what to look for, original vs reproduction will be obvious. NCRS has a book dedicated to trim tags and anomalies that occur in the manufacture of trim tags.

GeneralT

The seller purchased an original black/red trim tag. Others have noted here the date code is off by one month on the replacement and that is how an appraiser would pick it up. I also wonder if they can tell the original tag was physically removed and replaced. I am more curious than anything to see if the appraiser picks it up, but the real question is what is the value difference once he knows. Do I need a Corvette expert to answer that question?

edit: Maybe it would be better just to point the problem out to the appraiser ahead of time and give him some time to research the issue and ask his colleagues? He is part of a network of appraisers. That would help him better answer the real question I have.

jbalch

How do you know the trim tag is real, because he says so? Typically a magnification device is used to tell the differences to determine originality. If looking at a picture to see the differences, the picture must be enlarged and very high quality.

Nowhere Man

If the guy doesn’t find out the tag has been replaced I would not use is appraisal for any thing but experience

GeneralT

Good point. I don't know for sure if it is real, but the fact that he paid $1,000 for it (he showed me proof that I accept as real) suggests it is. Would he need to spend $1,000 on a fake? And if he was going to fake it why not get the date code right? He certainly would have known to do that. We also had a discussion about how he finds the original tags and what they cost... he said up to $5,000. If someone is paying $5K for an original tag, that must be a big fraud.

I am going to make a judgment call and give the appraiser all the information ahead of time and give him a chance to be fully prepared to research as necessary. Whether an appraiser would find it or not is really just a curiosity to me and not really germane to the actual valuation problem.

Nowhere Man

No the tag being replaced is the whole point of a evaluation and appraisal. I would not tell him up front. At the very end if he does not catch it ask him to look at it again. on of the first things he should check is the vin tag with the build date and the trim tag and all of its codes. You can’t figure out any of the other dates on the car without knowing that.

GeneralT

Although I am interested to see if he finds it, it seems that all I am really learning is something about the appraiser, but not the car. Something worth learning but it doesn't help me with the valuation problem. Of course I already know the problem exists. Whether an individual appraiser spots it or not it is still going to get disclosed in any future sale. What is that going to cost me?... that is my real question. And of course I want to see what other surprises there might be. And then ultimately I have to make a decision about trying to rescind the sale or trying to come up with a negotiated settlement if that turns out to be possible.

jrm5657

If your appraiser doesn't call out the trim tag date descrepency, than I wouldn't count on him to discover anything else that might be incorrect with it. Will he be able to recognize press molded fiberglass versus hand laid? Does he know where bonding strips should be present. I would not tip him off on anything, I am betting he doesn't know C2 Corvettes well enough to find much of anything. Personally, when I look at a car for potential purchase, the tags are the first thing I look at, if they don't pass the test, then the rest of the car is irrelevant.

GeneralT

Press molded vs hand laid Fiberglass, bonding strips? OK, now you're scaring me! Yeah, that's definitely going to be a Corvette thing. I am going to ask him about that. Maybe you would like to get out of the heat in AZ and come check out the car?

Powershift

Unfortunately I believe this is what the OP will get: someone with a good general knowledge of the car hobby, but very little specific knowledge of C2 Corvettes.

I believe OP needs to guide his appraiser on what OP wants from the appraisal. Otherwise OP is going to be disappointed on the final outcome. I will bet $50 to St Jude, that the appraiser doesn't notice the Trim Tag date discrepancy, unless it is pointed out to him. Any takers??

Just my opinion, but likely what will occur as things play out.

Larry

jrm5657

You need to PM Pancho at provette67 and get him on a plane to California to figure out what you really bought. If I was in Arizona right now, I would help you out, but I am not there right now.

jbalch

Exactly, you have a mess with possible legal ramifications. I would get a proven expert like provette67 involved or his equivalent. You will learn what you have and don't have....
Just because he paid $1000 for the black/red trim tag doesn't make it real, he may have bought a reproduction and was duped, and maybe that's what a black/red repo cost...

GeneralT

I would love to bring in a top expert, but cost is a factor right now based on where I am at in the process. The appraiser I have scheduled is $400 (no travel costs). I don't know if that is expensive for a more general expert or not but everything here is expensive. This is a mess but maybe not a large dollar amount mess. This isn't a show car. Would love to find a local Corvette expert, but if I can't in the next couple days I want to get an expert opinion to give me a basis for discussion with the appropriate parties (if I need it). eBay says their response time is 24 to 48 hours so I could even hear back from them tomorrow.

roadster65

If you're going to spend $400 on a garden variety appraisal, then you're just pizzlin' around. You're better of spending the extra $600 to get the job done properly, otherwise you've just wasted $400 and have to ante up $1,000 again (penny wise & pound foolish) - a false saving and a huge waste of time … and an "Expert Appraisal" will carry more weight if you decide to press your case. - GV

GeneralT

I have/had no idea what the going rate is for a quality inspection/appraisal. Now I do. I'll keep looking for a focused expert. I will call the Corvette shop in Hayward tomorrow to see if they can give me a reference. Thanks for your help.

Geoff

roadster65

Geoff; It may not cost a $1,000, more like $500 - $600, but I would certainly engage someone who is totally au fait with C2 Corvettes, through the whole range of model years and who is able to discern the variances that arise, often in the one model year. An "Expert Appraiser" WILL be able to identify any and all nuances pertaining to your vehicle, I would let them undertake their inspection without prejudice so they have an open mind and are not influenced by anything adverse you have alerted to them beforehand. Only on completion of the "Appraisal" would I explain the situation regarding the vehicles provenance and "replacement" Trim Tag. An "Expert Appraiser" at the same time will also be able to advise you of the implications a "modified" Trim Tag has upon (a) the current value of the vehicle and (b) any issues (legal or otherwise) that could ensue when it comes to time to "sell" the vehicle.

There was another Thread that was posted sometime earlier this year, where the owner took his car down to the DMV (California) and he was required by the inspector to "lift" the body to show the actual VIN stamped into the chassis, to validate the car what it was supposed to be, otherwise, the DMV was going to re-issue and restamp the car with a new VIN and issue an "altered" Title, which is NOT what you want - the OP of that Thread sweet talked the inspector to visit his home where he slightly raised the body to reveal the Chassis VIN - Lucky - whilst it may not seem like it now, the situation as it unfolds is not good to be in, especially with California's strict Title rules. - GV

Easy Rhino

This.

Do not pass Go, do not collect $50.

If you are going to try to make this thing right, that is, not just walk away and accept the seller's position, you need someone that knows these cars cold, inside and out, with years of experience who can back up their conclusions. A generic collector car guy would get eaten up in a deposition by someone like Pancho in a court review, but no one can hold a candle to Pancho when it comes to the real unassailable knowledge about these cars, including provenance, value of details, and the more esoteric items such as value of one color over another for a given model. Yes, it will costs some money to have him get involved, but his expertise is rock solid and the Corvette world knows it. Perhaps most importantly, and second or third rate defense "expert" statements would be shredded by Pancho (Provette 67).

Add this to it: Having Pancho inspect it might actually force an earlier settlement (read: less legal wrangling) since his reputation is pretty much well known and unassailable, and I doubt anyone would be willing to argue with him on facts. In other words, it may likely force the seller to come to truth more quickly than a less-qualified inspector mucking up the inspection, leaving the seller wiggle room and even potentially contaminating your case.

Zoomin

Has the car been picked up yet? Shipping it out and accepting delivery precludes a settlement where you simply void the sale. Also if he catches wind of this thread that original trim tag may prove impossible to get.

I dont see what good an appraisal at this point does you. Maybe later in court but not now.

If ebay refunded money every time someone was scammed, they’d be bankrupted ages ago.