JMG2

I've been hearing widely different definitions of "numbers matching" in connection w/ c2s... what's the accepted meaning? I've heard people vehemently tell me that numbers matching means just that -- that if you have a motor that's re-stamped, it's a "numbers matching," but not "born with" motor. I've heard just as vehement arguments that numbers matching is synonymous with "born with"

Also, how does ncrs judge on this ? I'm assuming it's either a born-with motor, or NOM, and nothing in between?

Nowhere Man

just accept the fact that no one is going to agree on anything in this thread

Randy G.

I agree with this!

kellsdad

IMHO, shortcut phrases such as "numbers matching" are kind of like the word "love." It means whatever the person who is saying it means and nothing else. And, like "love" it is often used to disguise what the speaker really means. Far more important than shortcut phrases are actual facts such as, "the guy who sold me this car last year said it was the original engine, but I don't have any proof one way or the other."

W Guy

The term "numbers matching" today has no real meaning at all. It is/was intended to indicate that the parts are original to the car, but that no longer is the meaning. It just means that the numbers that are there NOW seem to be those that WOULD be there if the parts WERE original.

Verne

Rob_64-365

This is why you match the trim tag vin #, with the motor stamp pad #, & make sure it's all perfect looking, date codes correct also, otherwise it's most likely a fake job! The snake oil used car salesman will advertise a matching numbers car, because the car he bought last week for 40k, is advertised for 75k on his web site this week, without pictures of any of these items, but plenty of the fresh rattle canned spray painted underbody. They'll argue the opposite of my point.

vettebuyer6369

It’s not that complicated. NM generally refers to the engine block VIN derivative numbers matching the the chassis. That can happen if the block is original or if the numbers were restamped. Not hard.

Some people use NM as some sort of generalized term when they mean “correct.” Like an alternator that is the correct number for a certain car. However, there’s nothing on that part that matches anything. It’s correct, but doesn’t match.

If people look up what the word “matching” means in the dictionary, they won’t get all confused by all the people who twist the term around to suit their purpose.

SW Vette

Hence the dstinction between "numbers matching" and "original, born with..." One is, while the other probably isn't.

427Hotrod

It's only "original" once. Once that part is gone....it's not original.

Now you can find a similar part with same casting dates and restamp the VIN on it maybe and then it's "matching numbers". Be aware a lot of parts with same numbers were used on other cars in addition to Vette's.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that". LOL


It's all about creating perceived value...or I suppose creating real value if someone believes it's worth more.

JIM

emccomas

I agree with the agreement on this.

When the phrase "Matching Numbers" first started being used (Yes, I am old enough to remember that), it really was intended to convey that information that the car in question had all of the original numbered and dated components. And I mean everything, from engine to voltage regulator. The only parts that this term did not include were consumable items (like plugs, shocks, etc.)

If that component had a number and / or date on it, it was included in the definition of matching numbers.

Then the dealers / speculators got into the game, and "Matching Numbers" started taking on a new meaning, eventually including a re-stamped engine as "Matching Numbers".

So the originality crowd started using phrases like "born with engine", "factory original components", etc.

Now it is just a big clusterF.

There is no clear cut, hard and fast phrase(s) that we all agree to at this point.

The thing I find most interesting is the way that ads are worded so that sellers don't actually have to admit that the car has a re-stamped motor.

Buyer Beware.

JMG2

what is ncrs's position on this? for example, I assume "born with" motors are given more points than "numbers matching" motors, but I've been told (by no one that I trust) that the point spread is much narrower these days.

Mind you, this is all just curiosity on my end. I already own, and I own a NOM car, just curious where the lines are in the debate. I really don't have a stake in this one way or the other

colo63sw

I consider Born With to mean the exact & only parts installed on a particular car on the assembly line. I think the motor, transmission & frame are the only things with the car S/N stamped on them. All other born with claims is only as good as the provenance. This is what Numbers Matching used to mean, but not anymore.

IMHO Numbers Matching has been watered down to mean ‘has parts that markings indicate were made in the correct time frame for manufacture of the S/N of the car’. I think NCRS, (to expand their membership base & judging activities), has adapted that definition, including the S/N stamped on the motor & tranny.

rsinor

Verne, I actually believe the term number matching was created by the unscrupulous to lead the unknowing into thinking it meant original, when in fact the unscrupulous knew "It just means that the numbers that are there NOW seem to be those that WOULD be there if the parts WERE original" .

CorvetteMikeB

I agree with you. It's your car, do what you want with the engine, body , interior, exterior etc. The minds of both buyers and sellers are changing with each generation. One thing is constant for sure, the market will always be changing with the times!!

jimh_1962

65hihp

For Flight Judging, it makes no difference if a car has born with engine, or restoration engine. They judge the same IF the numbers appear typical of factory production. Flight judging makes no effort to determine or certify true factory original parts. People with an interest in how NCRS judging is conducted should come out and look at a judging meet sometime. Or, short of that, buy a copy of the latest edition of the Judging Reference Manual available on the NCRS website store. Then all the assumptions can be put aside.

smd001

This is how I perceive it. I also think it depends on the rarity and collectability of the car. My car is a "born with drivetrain"; and largely as delivered. However it has a recast water pump, vintage Borg Warner replacement master cylinder and a few other non-original components(mostly suspension) and repro items due to it being 56 years old and having 107k miles on it. Things wear out and need replaced.

If I was a collector and looking at a very rare and desirable car I would place extra value on it having the motor that was installed at the factory but certainly not enough to pass on a car I wanted because it had a date correct but NOM engine in it.

68hemi

I think the bottom line is for people that are concerned about the car having an original engine or drivetrain should simply asked the question can you prove it is the born with engine or drivetrain. If the seller cannot do this then you have to just consider the car as numbers matching If in fact the numbers do match.

W Guy

Roy, I'm not sure it was "created by the unscrupulous", but it surely was adopted by them. I believe there was a time when honest people used the term to mean original or born-with. There may even be a few people today who use the term thinking it does mean "original".

Verne

Mark_Milner

How hard can it be?

Matching numbers - the numbers match. That is all. If I write numbers on it with a Sharpie, and they match the VIN, then it is numbers matching.

Original - it is original.

Born With - this has to be one of the dumber terms. Cars are not "born". They are built. But many use it to mean the one in it when it left the factory.

One last note. What these words really mean, and what the user thinks they mean, are frequently different and even purposely distorted as a way to get a buyer to pay more money. As such, let the buyer beware. Do your own due diligence. Check them out yourself, and if you are not enough of an expert to determine such, hire one who is.

If you think this last part isn't true, review the comments in this thread and notice that everyone has a different definition.