devildog

I am cross eyed after looking at the wiring diagram and old threads.

Yesterday my 61 with all the original electrical equipment blew an inline 30 amp fuse on the black wire from the starter to the dash amp meter.

I have had fuse in that line for 35 years; blown it 4-7 times. I had been driving for 20 minutes running well. I turned corner and got on it to 4,000 for an instant. Then died at next stop light, all power dead. My fuse !! Replaced fuse, all is OK, and ran another 1/2 mile to stop light, died and installed second fuse.

However, I noticed the amp meter was pegged, so I nursed it home keeping rpms less than 1300. If I ran over 1300, the amp gauge would peg. At idle the amp would show a slight discharge not normal, usually little charge.

Installed a new voltage regulator, but still have the high charge...amp pegs if rpms over 1300. Polarized it

I have worked through low charging over the years but no prior high charge problems. I am stumped.

Thanks all

Joe

Frankie the Fink

Do a secondary check. Put a voltmeter across the battery and do the rev check. You should see between 13.8 and 14.2 V or so. Much higher and you still have some sort of regulation problem.

Its not impossible that your gauge is bad.

rich5962

After the battery/charge voltage test, also measure your F (Field) terminal on the generator. It may be internally shorted to ground. If it is, it will be in full charge at all times.

I once had a VR stuck on(i.s. Field always energized) and it fried the armature as it was in full charge for a long time.

Also, a generator won't charge until at around 1000 rpm so when at idle it wouldn't be charging.

jim lockwood

My bet is that something went wrong with the field wiring inside the generator. Take it to a rebuild shop and let them check it out.

devildog

Frank
Rich
Jim

Thanks,

1.Did the rev test across the battery, with switch off about 13 V, with engine running 12.6-12.9 at idle and upto 2500 rpm.

2.Checking voltage output at field on generator, if jumped around from 10-14 Volts but never above 14 V.

3.the amp meter did not peg. It run up to about 15-20 amps, then slowly came down. With revs to 2500 it did not go above 20 amps

So, it seems to be working. I guess bad voltage regulator...I am too lazy to reinstall the old one to determine if that actually was the problem.

Just monitor it

Thanks again
Joe

devildog

I started the 61 this morning, while waiting for it to warm up, the voltage regulator pegged again at 1500+ rpm as initially discussed. It was indicating about 5+ even at idle.

I shut it down and restarted, pegged again at 1500+ rpm. Restarted a few times and same high amp indication.

Disconnected battery and set 5 minutes. When started it indicated 15 amp and slowly came down. Let it idle a few minutes and when rev it did not peg and needle was steady. Voltage regulator is OK

Of course I can not get it to go to high voltage now to check generator voltage during malfunction.

So???? Any ideas? I am thinking bad amp gauge???? I forget how to check amps at gauge. Just wanted some old thoughts before I crawl under dash and start cussing.

Thanks all

Joe

Frankie the Fink

I haven't read back to refamiliarize myself with your issue, but those old, mechanical V/Rs have solenoids and contact points to control voltage (and current BTW). Perhaps the solenoids are operating intermittently or the points are sticking when cold.

I would swap in a repro V/R as a check. Note: most of those repro V/Rs made now are NON-adjustable; which is too bad...

The procedure to test the mechanical V/R (and adjust it) are in the '61 Passenger Car Shop Manual.

devildog

Frank thanks, the V/R is OK (new) and after I reset battery disconnect the amp meter is working correctly.

I can not get it to go to high amp indication to test while inop.

Joe

rich5962

It's possible your gauge is bad, or the insulators for the studs are marginal and causing a low grade short, intermittently.

If the VR is positively good, I'd pull the gauge wires and check for problems around the studs. Or you may find when you go to remove them that the terminals are loose or corroded.

Other possibilities include problems in the harness, and wiring up by the horn relay(Red #12G), which is always powered.

Rich
ps just yank the battery cable off before you get into it anywhere.

pps....also check your battery disconnect for any corrosion. if there is, it may caise a intermittent high current condition in the system also.

Pilot Dan

One other suggestion, would be to check the routing on the big red wire through the engine compartment and under the dash for signs of chafing which may be causing an intermittent short. There is a lot going on under the dash with moving parts in close proximity to wires.
Sounds more like a short to me. Pilot Dan

Frankie the Fink

The black feed to that ammeter is the primary feed to the rest of a '61's wiring.....literally everything but the starter circuit. These are 'full-flow' ammeters and if there was a short there would be major fireworks or a blown fuse if the OP had added one.... I wouldn't rule it out but boy it seems unlikely to me - I'm thinking bad gauge at this point...

Pilot Dan

15 amps in the battery is an overcharge condition which could be caused by a short in the wiring to ground possibly at the generator or elsewhere in the harness. You say you have ruled out the regulator. I'd say it's time to look at all the wiring and the insulators at the gauge. do you have the wiring routed and properly supported with the correct under dash clips?

devildog

Dan
Rich
Frank

Thanks for suggestions...resistance or short in wiring seems like the logical targets. I will reinstall the old V/R just to be sure about that issue.

About 40 years ago I had an under dash 'fire' when the 12 gauge black from the ammeter->starter wire heated due to a short. I replaced that and later put a fuse in the line. I have blown it a few times over the years.

Yes, there is much old stuff chaffing and vibrating under the dash.

Will post results so other can refer to this in future.

Thanks all.

Joe

dplotkin

If you have ruled out a short in the wiring, I think you need to reconsider your voltage regulator as the symptoms you describe are consistent with sticking regulator points (assuming your generator field coils are not shorting as pointed out above).

The three element regulator has a cutout (circuit breaker that opens the circuit from generator to battery when generator output falls below battery voltage), a current regulator, and a voltage regulator. When every thing is right and the engine is running above idle, the cutout is closed and the voltage and current regulators take turns opening and closing rapidly, they are NEVER closed together, unless they are sticking, which could cause the condition you describe.

Similarly, if the cutout sticks closed with engine off, the battery will attempt to "motor" the generator, draw excessive current from the locked armature and blow a fuse.

As Frankie and I have pointed out in other related posts the replacement voltage regulators today are **** poor. Contact quality is abysmal, and adjustability non-existent. The original Delco regulators were precision instruments. The replacements are not.

I think your problem is in your regulator. I've had 3 in a 60 Buick I've owned for 8 years. Rule out everything else and lay your hands on an NOS Delco unit.

Dan

Frankie the Fink

Someone refuted the "non-adjustable" statement with repro regulators a while back. The claim was that you could bend something or other to bring thing into spec. Don't remember exactly - perhaps the contact point arms or some such. Not very precise and not documented by the manufacturer. I'll still stand by the comment that they are "non-adjustable" for all intents and purposes.

If Devildog were closer I'd loan him my spare solid-state regulator for troubleshooting...
There are only a few of these on the planet for generator driven cars...

devildog

Frank, it is probably good we are not close by. We would have fun, but may result in a few misdemeanors and low level felonies.

I have adjust these 'fixed' V/R by bending the stop tab. In the early years of owning this 61, I would use wood splinters in the V/R points to activate to 'charge' the battery until I had time or money to replace the V/R.

Joe

Pilot Dan

The new voltage regulators don't have the same quality hardened contact points that the old ones do. Even if you can adjust it by bending the arm, they don't hold and a month later you are back where you started. Just because it's new out of the box, I would NOT assume it is set accurately either. I tried a few and got different readings right out of the box, one was 16V.

I am still thinking you have an intermittent short since you say you have blown fuses over the years and again this time after getting your foot in it. Check to see if any wiring is in close proximity to something that would make contact when the engine moves under torque or something else under the dash is moving and making contact under turns ect... Is your wiring the old original stuff?

I have never seen an overcharging or undercharging regulator cause that.

devildog

Again thanks to all for your comments. I checked/cleaned all the under dash wires and connections:

1.The black 12 gauge wire on the amp meter was a bit loose

2.Checked the wire resistance across all the charging circuit wires OK

When I restarted the car, the amp pegged again!! I let it idle and it stabilized at indicated 5 amp charge. Drove it 20 minutes, the amps stayed stable TOO STABLE as if the needle was fried on 5 amps.

When I shut off, it would go correctly to ZERO. When turned on switch, needle width negative charge as expected. When activated brake light, turn signal, head lights, I would get slight reduction of amp reading as expected.

Just to confirm V/R, I reinstalled the old V/R and works same as new V/R. Therefore, it was not initially a V/R problem.

I believe the gremlin is chased out of the system...wish I could identify what it was. But, it seems to function properly. Since I have the system well fused with extra fuses in the charging circuit, etc., I am not too concerned of damage.

Thanks again
Joe

vettepoor

Joe - I have been following your thread as I have been having a similar problem with my 57(stock generator and VR). Gauge operates normally except when I use turn signals, when it shows higher than usual charging on gauge. I would think it should show slight discharge at idle? Fine at cruising speed (normal charging), also discharge shown when lights on at idle. I've checked voltage across battery terminals and all seems normal. Very puzzling!

dplotkin

If you see a reasonably steady 13.8-14.5 V across the battery, engine running above idle with headlamps & heater blower on, and the battery shows no evidence of overcharging (wet stains around caps/low water) or undercharging, I would ignore your ammeters.


The problem with ammeters is that they don't tell you much beyond the direction of current flow. A voltmeter provides much more useful information. For those of you with ammeters that make you nervous, I would consider installing a voltmeter in a hidden location (if you object to the non-originality it poses). Run one side to the battery positive or starter lug and the other to a good ground. Fuse it at the connection point with a very small fuse to protect the wire since voltmeters measure potential and not current. It will put your mind at ease.


Dan