Starter too hot?
08-14-2002, 10:52 AM
#1
Moderator
Thread Starter
Starter too hot?
I've heard the talk about starters getting too hot and not turning the engine, but yesterday was a first for me. Drove the 64 in 90+ degrees for about a half hour, some stop-'n-go. Stopped for about 20 minutes and when I tried to start it....nothing. Everything else worked fine. The batt gage went to minus (pegged) when turning the key to the start mode, but no activity from the starter at all. Had to bump start it and got it home with no problem. Tried once again to start it after about a minute (on a hill) and again would not crank. After I got home I shut it off and it fired right up. Started it 5 times, no problem. So is this how an overheated starter acts? Zero activity? And do the heat wraps really work? I WILL check connections this afternoon but would like to know the solution for this. Putting a wrap on seems easy enough, if it will work. Thanks... :cool:
08-14-2002, 11:22 AM
#2
Melting Slicks
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Re: Starter too hot? (MasterDave)
I had a GTO with headers. It did this all the time when hot. Finally pitched the headers, they were on the car when I got it and I never really liked them anyway. I changed batteries, solenoids, battery cables, brushes EVERYTHING. Until those damn headers were gone I had problems in the summer on hot hot days. I know you have some sort of home grown exhaust up there to accomodate the side pipes and whatever so heat may be the trouble. How close are the pipes to the starter motor? My GTO starter was so close to the headers you could barely see it down there let alone put any wrap around it. As to the effectiveness of the wrap? I don't know. Always seemed to me it would slow cooling when the car was shut off. I dunno.
Now onto your starter. With all my investigation on the GTO here is what I learned. My car would just plain not turn for a second or two then start cranking . Kinda like one of those old WWII radials that started to crank ever so slow then faster and faster and well you get it. Don't hold that key in the start position long when the starter is locked. All you are doing is creating more heat while the juice is flowing and the starter motor is locked up. Where there is heat there can be fire. Nuff said!
Excess heat will cause exactly what you are seeing however it is usually in combo with other things. If everything in the starter is up to snuff you are less likely (less likely I said not unlikely) to have the heat soak problem. You may have a bad solenoid, your busings that hold the armature suspended in the starter might be worn out, the started might need brushes or the stator in the starter (say that 50 times fast) might be electrically caput.
When the starter fails to turn it is possible that the armature is grounding on the stator. Heat expansion of the parts in combo with warn bushings in the starter decrease the already small clearance and you have trouble.
Take the starter apart, look for signs of the armature rubbing on the stator, look at the little bushings in the front cover of the starter and back in the nose that goes into the flywheel. If those things check out think about the solenoid, or just replace it, don't even think about it. You make the call. Use a good brand not some offshore PBoys trash!
You may need to find a real electrical shop that can test the armature and the stator. Not Pep Boys. Also look at the armature face. There are grooves along the armature surface that run parallel to the long axis of the armature. If they are filled with crud or if they are worn flat forget the starter working. I have seen little cutting wheels in electrical repair shops that roto rooter the junk out of those grooves when a quality rebuild is done by a quality shop.
If you go for another starter this is my suggestion. Go for a new GM. This offshore rebuilt stuff is just junk. It works OK for awhile but better in my opinion to just bite the bullet and go for new GM or at least a Delco rebuilt. . It will be more expensive but likely it will be done and over with. Finished fixed and on to the next thing.
Having said all that can you look over my item from a day or so ago about the Regulator and testing the Ammeter / Voltmeter in the dash? I think you had some input on this some time ago. I spit up big money for an NOS "Battery Guage" and I want to be sure everything is A-OK before I load it into the car.
[Modified by TheOman, 9:37 AM 8/14/2002]
Now onto your starter. With all my investigation on the GTO here is what I learned. My car would just plain not turn for a second or two then start cranking . Kinda like one of those old WWII radials that started to crank ever so slow then faster and faster and well you get it. Don't hold that key in the start position long when the starter is locked. All you are doing is creating more heat while the juice is flowing and the starter motor is locked up. Where there is heat there can be fire. Nuff said!
Excess heat will cause exactly what you are seeing however it is usually in combo with other things. If everything in the starter is up to snuff you are less likely (less likely I said not unlikely) to have the heat soak problem. You may have a bad solenoid, your busings that hold the armature suspended in the starter might be worn out, the started might need brushes or the stator in the starter (say that 50 times fast) might be electrically caput.
When the starter fails to turn it is possible that the armature is grounding on the stator. Heat expansion of the parts in combo with warn bushings in the starter decrease the already small clearance and you have trouble.
Take the starter apart, look for signs of the armature rubbing on the stator, look at the little bushings in the front cover of the starter and back in the nose that goes into the flywheel. If those things check out think about the solenoid, or just replace it, don't even think about it. You make the call. Use a good brand not some offshore PBoys trash!
You may need to find a real electrical shop that can test the armature and the stator. Not Pep Boys. Also look at the armature face. There are grooves along the armature surface that run parallel to the long axis of the armature. If they are filled with crud or if they are worn flat forget the starter working. I have seen little cutting wheels in electrical repair shops that roto rooter the junk out of those grooves when a quality rebuild is done by a quality shop.
If you go for another starter this is my suggestion. Go for a new GM. This offshore rebuilt stuff is just junk. It works OK for awhile but better in my opinion to just bite the bullet and go for new GM or at least a Delco rebuilt. . It will be more expensive but likely it will be done and over with. Finished fixed and on to the next thing.
Having said all that can you look over my item from a day or so ago about the Regulator and testing the Ammeter / Voltmeter in the dash? I think you had some input on this some time ago. I spit up big money for an NOS "Battery Guage" and I want to be sure everything is A-OK before I load it into the car.
[Modified by TheOman, 9:37 AM 8/14/2002]
08-14-2002, 11:22 AM
#3
Le Mans Master
Re: Starter too hot? (MasterDave)
Guess What there Master Dave , I have the same problem. After driving a long distance and some stop and go in 90 + *'s. Last week end when I got home I shut the motor off got out and took some stuff out of the car and then opened the garage, when I went to start.... nada!!! Just a little clicking sound with a Neg pegging ammeter.
So I shot a little water on the starter and solenoid and it started up. I have side pipes and the pipe isn't anywhare near the starter.
So, What is it the starter, or the solenoid????
ANYBODY................................. ???
So I shot a little water on the starter and solenoid and it started up. I have side pipes and the pipe isn't anywhare near the starter.
So, What is it the starter, or the solenoid????
ANYBODY................................. ???
08-14-2002, 04:28 PM
#4
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Re: Starter too hot? (Viet Nam Vett)
Put a good battery in the thing. A good starter will start everytime. However it needs a GOOD battery for enough voltage to turn it over. If you still have the problem get back to me. We can probably solve the issue. Wally Knoch
08-14-2002, 05:41 PM
#5
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Thread Starter
Re: Starter too hot? (TheOman)
OK -O-, just bought a new starter, got the Moroso heat shield and new wire connectors for the ends that attach to the starter. Will install tonight........why's this crap always happen when the once-a-year hot rod show is Friday? :confused: It's an easy swap, gotta love 'em old cars!! :cheers:
08-14-2002, 07:36 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
Re: Starter too hot? (MasterDave)
Heh Master Dave,
Whats the Moroso Heat shield like??? Is It in Jegs Catalog??? Is It Metal or a fiber cloth type material??? Lotta Questions huh??.......... :lol: :lol:
Whats the Moroso Heat shield like??? Is It in Jegs Catalog??? Is It Metal or a fiber cloth type material??? Lotta Questions huh??.......... :lol: :lol:
08-14-2002, 08:14 PM
#7
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Re: Starter too hot? (Viet Nam Vett)
Vietnam, I don't see it in the Summit cat...oh there it is, in the Jeg's cat. It's an older one but it's on pg 89-C at the bottom center of the page. It attaches to the two long starter bolts (the ones that hold it together) and the other end attaches to one of the solenoid bolts. Made of aluminum and has an air gap at the solenoid side. Looks cool, hope it works. The one pictured is not for the V8, more likely for the V6 or the mini starter. I picked mine up from the local shop for $29.
08-14-2002, 09:16 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
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Re: Starter too hot? (MasterDave)
This month's issue (October 2002) of Rod & Custom on page 52 have an article "Starter Helper" and talk about the above situation. They talk about a product named "Hot Shot" and "Hot Shot Plus" that is supposed to remedy the problem with hot starting. They mention this is a common problem with older cars and hot rods. I find Rod & Custom and Street Rodder to be more in tune with the C1/C2 crowd then most Vette mags.
:cheers:
:cheers:
08-14-2002, 09:51 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
Re: Starter too hot? (MasterDave)
Thanks Master Dave and Kenmo,
I'll Check it out......................... :flag
I'll Check it out......................... :flag
08-14-2002, 10:08 PM
#10
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Re: Starter too hot? (TheOman)
What is all this BS about hot starters. What you need is a GOOD starter, and a GOOD battery. That goes without saying that the battery cables are are in good shape. Never use emergency ends. { cut the cable and put a piece of junk on the end }. Another problem is the alternator, { generator }it MUST be in good condition and putting out the correct voltage. Whats wrong with you guys. I presume that you have cars worth thousands of dollars and look for the cheapest way out. I sell the BEST starters and alternators on the market but nine of ten times amatures are installing these parts. I have heard every excuse in the books about hot starters. Hell they all get hot and dont need fancy aftermarket junk to help them out. If anyone out there needs good parts go to my web site at http://www.nitroalley.net and order some good parts. If your a numbers matching freak send your old units to us and we will make them like NEW. Guaranteed no junk. If you have problems, get in touch and we can help you get back on track. My 62 FI Vette is running almost before you can take you hand off the key. You can reach inside the car and grab the key, turn it and the car is running immediately. On my site you can actually here one of my cars run by pushing the start engine button. And this is a very rare extremely high horsepower car. Done right any car with any horsepower should start immediately. And ALL starters get extremely hot. I dare you to try the Cuda if you dont believe. :cool: Let me know, E mail me on the site
I had a GTO with headers. It did this all the time when hot. Finally pitched the headers, they were on the car when I got it and I never really liked them anyway. I changed batteries, solenoids, battery cables, brushes EVERYTHING. Until those damn headers were gone I had problems in the summer on hot hot days. I know you have some sort of home grown exhaust up there to accomodate the side pipes and whatever so heat may be the trouble. How close are the pipes to the starter motor? My GTO starter was so close to the headers you could barely see it down there let alone put any wrap around it. As to the effectiveness of the wrap? I don't know. Always seemed to me it would slow cooling when the car was shut off. I dunno.
Now onto your starter. With all my investigation on the GTO here is what I learned. My car would just plain not turn for a second or two then start cranking . Kinda like one of those old WWII radials that started to crank ever so slow then faster and faster and well you get it. Don't hold that key in the start position long when the starter is locked. All you are doing is creating more heat while the juice is flowing and the starter motor is locked up. Where there is heat there can be fire. Nuff said!
Excess heat will cause exactly what you are seeing however it is usually in combo with other things. If everything in the starter is up to snuff you are less likely (less likely I said not unlikely) to have the heat soak problem. You may have a bad solenoid, your busings that hold the armature suspended in the starter might be worn out, the started might need brushes or the stator in the starter (say that 50 times fast) might be electrically caput.
When the starter fails to turn it is possible that the armature is grounding on the stator. Heat expansion of the parts in combo with warn bushings in the starter decrease the already small clearance and you have trouble.
Take the starter apart, look for signs of the armature rubbing on the stator, look at the little bushings in the front cover of the starter and back in the nose that goes into the flywheel. If those things check out think about the solenoid, or just replace it, don't even think about it. You make the call. Use a good brand not some offshore PBoys trash!
You may need to find a real electrical shop that can test the armature and the stator. Not Pep Boys. Also look at the armature face. There are grooves along the armature surface that run parallel to the long axis of the armature. If they are filled with crud or if they are worn flat forget the starter working. I have seen little cutting wheels in electrical repair shops that roto rooter the junk out of those grooves when a quality rebuild is done by a quality shop.
If you go for another starter this is my suggestion. Go for a new GM. This offshore rebuilt stuff is just junk. It works OK for awhile but better in my opinion to just bite the bullet and go for new GM or at least a Delco rebuilt. . It will be more expensive but likely it will be done and over with. Finished fixed and on to the next thing.
Having said all that can you look over my item from a day or so ago about the Regulator and testing the Ammeter / Voltmeter in the dash? I think you had some input on this some time ago. I spit up big money for an NOS "Battery Guage" and I want to be sure everything is A-OK before I load it into the car.
[Modified by TheOman, 9:37 AM 8/14/2002]
Now onto your starter. With all my investigation on the GTO here is what I learned. My car would just plain not turn for a second or two then start cranking . Kinda like one of those old WWII radials that started to crank ever so slow then faster and faster and well you get it. Don't hold that key in the start position long when the starter is locked. All you are doing is creating more heat while the juice is flowing and the starter motor is locked up. Where there is heat there can be fire. Nuff said!
Excess heat will cause exactly what you are seeing however it is usually in combo with other things. If everything in the starter is up to snuff you are less likely (less likely I said not unlikely) to have the heat soak problem. You may have a bad solenoid, your busings that hold the armature suspended in the starter might be worn out, the started might need brushes or the stator in the starter (say that 50 times fast) might be electrically caput.
When the starter fails to turn it is possible that the armature is grounding on the stator. Heat expansion of the parts in combo with warn bushings in the starter decrease the already small clearance and you have trouble.
Take the starter apart, look for signs of the armature rubbing on the stator, look at the little bushings in the front cover of the starter and back in the nose that goes into the flywheel. If those things check out think about the solenoid, or just replace it, don't even think about it. You make the call. Use a good brand not some offshore PBoys trash!
You may need to find a real electrical shop that can test the armature and the stator. Not Pep Boys. Also look at the armature face. There are grooves along the armature surface that run parallel to the long axis of the armature. If they are filled with crud or if they are worn flat forget the starter working. I have seen little cutting wheels in electrical repair shops that roto rooter the junk out of those grooves when a quality rebuild is done by a quality shop.
If you go for another starter this is my suggestion. Go for a new GM. This offshore rebuilt stuff is just junk. It works OK for awhile but better in my opinion to just bite the bullet and go for new GM or at least a Delco rebuilt. . It will be more expensive but likely it will be done and over with. Finished fixed and on to the next thing.
Having said all that can you look over my item from a day or so ago about the Regulator and testing the Ammeter / Voltmeter in the dash? I think you had some input on this some time ago. I spit up big money for an NOS "Battery Guage" and I want to be sure everything is A-OK before I load it into the car.
[Modified by TheOman, 9:37 AM 8/14/2002]
08-15-2002, 10:36 AM
#11
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Thread Starter
Re: Starter too hot? (wallyknoch)
Take a breath Wally, it'll be ok.... :yesnod: While I too agree that if all is good a starter should kick off every time but it just is not the case in an excess heat situation. I have a new batt, cables (with factory ends) and a new alt/regulator. Also a new wiring harness was installed during my restore. I have had zero problems until a couple days ago in the hot stop 'n go that I mentioned. Now I suppose the starter could have been old and could not take the heat.......and when I took it apart last night to check it out I found the brushes about half gone and the rear bushing was pretty out of round. I opted for a new starter and installed it last night. It SHOULD cure the problem, but I will still put the heat wrap around it tonight. The Moroso shield I bought does not fit with the exhaust system I have so I'll exchange it today. Later.......and be :cool:
08-15-2002, 11:00 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
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Re: Starter too hot? (wallyknoch)
"What is all this BS about hot starters"
BS huh???
I think most of what I wrote describes symptoms that can occur when a BAD starter is in there. If you have a GOOD starter the conditions I described which are attributable to a BAD starter don't exist. So you are right if you have a GOOD starter what I described might not happen.
Now for the battery. I don't give a hoot how GOOD the battery is if the starter is BAD a GOOD battery ain't gonna matter. Same applies to a BAD battery and a GOOD starter.
And lastly if all this is BS splain to me please please please Mr Wizard why did the removal of the headers cure the problem when no other parts were changed in the header removal?????? I guess my BAD starter and BAD battery became GOOD by virtue of removing the headers? Oh wait I bet somebody slipped one of those GOOD starters you sell into my car without me knowing. Yeah that must have been it. Speaking of selling Mr Wizard I don't think you are supposed to be hawking your wares, no matter how GOOD they are, here in the Forum.
I suggest you put a BS tester on your own "stuff"! Hope the capitol letters **** ya off just like yours pissed me off. All I did was offer Dave some info, if you disagree with it put it where the sun don't shine.
[Modified by TheOman, 9:35 AM 8/15/2002]
BS huh???
I think most of what I wrote describes symptoms that can occur when a BAD starter is in there. If you have a GOOD starter the conditions I described which are attributable to a BAD starter don't exist. So you are right if you have a GOOD starter what I described might not happen.
Now for the battery. I don't give a hoot how GOOD the battery is if the starter is BAD a GOOD battery ain't gonna matter. Same applies to a BAD battery and a GOOD starter.
And lastly if all this is BS splain to me please please please Mr Wizard why did the removal of the headers cure the problem when no other parts were changed in the header removal?????? I guess my BAD starter and BAD battery became GOOD by virtue of removing the headers? Oh wait I bet somebody slipped one of those GOOD starters you sell into my car without me knowing. Yeah that must have been it. Speaking of selling Mr Wizard I don't think you are supposed to be hawking your wares, no matter how GOOD they are, here in the Forum.
I suggest you put a BS tester on your own "stuff"! Hope the capitol letters **** ya off just like yours pissed me off. All I did was offer Dave some info, if you disagree with it put it where the sun don't shine.
[Modified by TheOman, 9:35 AM 8/15/2002]
08-15-2002, 11:24 AM
#13
Melting Slicks
Re: Starter too hot? (TheOman)
Ok boys.... :boxing enjoyed the exchange now its time to kiss and make up.... :blueangel: well until the next post.... :lol:
08-15-2002, 11:29 AM
#14
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Thread Starter
Re: Starter too hot? (TheOman)
Hehe, ok we've said our peace. Let's let it lie now. I just re-read your advice and noticed your question about your batt gauge. Sometimes I get so wrapped up in my own stuff I can't see anything else. Sorry. Anywhoo.....your batt gauge will not be hurt IMO by whatever you do in replacing your other charging parts. It's just a meter for telling you what's happening. If it makes you feel better you could hook up a O-hm :jester meter set to the volts and check your system prior to hooking up your gauge. I have not yet ordered the solid state regulator due to my system is working ok. Hey if it aint broke.....you know. I really need to get one though, you never know when these points things are gonna stick and fry a batt. Still do not think it will hurt your gauge though.
08-15-2002, 01:01 PM
#15
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Re: Starter too hot? (MasterDave)
I guess I may be alittle lat eon this one however here goes. It has been my experience that the "no starter" syndrome after hot soak could be due to a faulty solenoid. That is the forst place I always check. It is my understanding that the fix is a NEW solenoid from AC Delco. Additionally I understand that the new ones have a different spring which also helps. I forget whether it is shorter or longer. Also the number of added breaks/connections to the internal starter/solenoid wiring also contributes to the probem as the more breaks you have in the line the higher the resistance. That is the other reason for a whole new solenoid in my very humble opinion.
john lolli
john lolli
08-15-2002, 01:21 PM
#16
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Re: Starter too hot? (JL66REDCPE)
Put at least a 2 guage copper welding cable to your starter, On aour racing cars this is always cures the problem. As the cable to the battery heats up the resistance rises dramatically. The general off the shelf variety cable is real junk, A good Welding cable with soldered cable ends will make your life better.
08-15-2002, 01:23 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
Re: Starter too hot? (JL66REDCPE)
Thanks John, got a new starter/solenoid in now. Just for added protection I will add a heat shield tonight. And don't be so humble all the time :lol: It's all good here, us C1/C2 owners are so calm........we need some not-so-humble BS here once in awhile. :cheers:
08-15-2002, 02:33 PM
#18
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Re: Starter too hot? (TheOman)
I presumed that Vette owners would use good parts and on this forum I was suprised on how many aftermarket so called performance parts are being used on thse cars. On the bottom of the bios I see roller rocker arms, fancy ignitions, so called hot camshafts and dyno tests. Who cares? Most of that stuff is for racing, not bench racing. I`ll bet that most of those owners never had an old Vette brand new. They are use to new front wheel drive cars not the old dinasours like mine. The old ones have age problems and require good replacement parts normally not available at the cut rate horse auto parts stores. Someone didn`t like the fact that I suggested to get in touch with me if you need help and GOOD parts. That I was permoting my parts. Well I have had Vetts all my life and could help someone in trouble. In reguard to some of our parts, our interiors have been installed in most of the award winning Vettes at all the major shows. We dont have junk nor do we sell junk. An that is no :bs. Wally Knoch
[Modified by wallyknoch, 2:35 PM 8/15/2002]
[Modified by wallyknoch, 2:37 PM 8/15/2002]
"What is all this BS about hot starters"
BS huh???
I think most of what I wrote describes symptoms that can occur when a BAD starter is in there. If you have a GOOD starter the conditions I described which are attributable to a BAD starter don't exist. So you are right if you have a GOOD starter what I described might not happen.
Now for the battery. I don't give a hoot how GOOD the battery is if the starter is BAD a GOOD battery ain't gonna matter. Same applies to a BAD battery and a GOOD starter.
And lastly if all this is BS splain to me please please please Mr Wizard why did the removal of the headers cure the problem when no other parts were changed in the header removal?????? I guess my BAD starter and BAD battery became GOOD by virtue of removing the headers? Oh wait I bet somebody slipped one of those GOOD starters you sell into my car without me knowing. Yeah that must have been it. Speaking of selling Mr Wizard I don't think you are supposed to be hawking your wares, no matter how GOOD they are, here in the Forum.
I suggest you put a BS tester on your own "stuff"! Hope the capitol letters **** ya off just like yours pissed me off. All I did was offer Dave some info, if you disagree with it put it where the sun don't shine.
[Modified by TheOman, 9:35 AM 8/15/2002]
BS huh???
I think most of what I wrote describes symptoms that can occur when a BAD starter is in there. If you have a GOOD starter the conditions I described which are attributable to a BAD starter don't exist. So you are right if you have a GOOD starter what I described might not happen.
Now for the battery. I don't give a hoot how GOOD the battery is if the starter is BAD a GOOD battery ain't gonna matter. Same applies to a BAD battery and a GOOD starter.
And lastly if all this is BS splain to me please please please Mr Wizard why did the removal of the headers cure the problem when no other parts were changed in the header removal?????? I guess my BAD starter and BAD battery became GOOD by virtue of removing the headers? Oh wait I bet somebody slipped one of those GOOD starters you sell into my car without me knowing. Yeah that must have been it. Speaking of selling Mr Wizard I don't think you are supposed to be hawking your wares, no matter how GOOD they are, here in the Forum.
I suggest you put a BS tester on your own "stuff"! Hope the capitol letters **** ya off just like yours pissed me off. All I did was offer Dave some info, if you disagree with it put it where the sun don't shine.
[Modified by TheOman, 9:35 AM 8/15/2002]
[Modified by wallyknoch, 2:35 PM 8/15/2002]
[Modified by wallyknoch, 2:37 PM 8/15/2002]
08-15-2002, 04:16 PM
#19
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Thread Starter
Re: Starter too hot? (wallyknoch)
We all like and appreciate the 'good stuff' for sure, many here indeed use only the best, some of us beginners in vettes learn the hard way that cheapie stuff does not last. Us old guys already know it, and still others simply cannot afford the best equipment and love driving them anyway. Hence problems and questions. That's what we're mainly here for.......the love of the car itself and trying to keep 'em going the best we can. Anyway, we appreciate any help you can offer and it will be taken by most here as CONSTRUCTIVE if you don't call BS everytime an honest question comes up. :cheers:
08-15-2002, 04:49 PM
#20
Re: Starter too hot? (MasterDave)
My 67 Chevelle did this as well. The headers would cook the solenoid.
I rewired it with heavy gauge wire, tried shielding, heat wrap, just made the cool down time longer. I would install a new solenoid and problem gone for a while. Then back at it. The headers just cook the Sh%T out of them. Always, when it cooled down, it would function. And this was with a a NEW GM starter ($250.00), New Interstate Batt.
Mark
[Modified by ghostrider20, 9:01 PM 8/15/2002]
I rewired it with heavy gauge wire, tried shielding, heat wrap, just made the cool down time longer. I would install a new solenoid and problem gone for a while. Then back at it. The headers just cook the Sh%T out of them. Always, when it cooled down, it would function. And this was with a a NEW GM starter ($250.00), New Interstate Batt.
Mark
[Modified by ghostrider20, 9:01 PM 8/15/2002]