LS motor in stock C1 chassis and steering
05-27-2014, 12:30 PM
#1
LS motor in stock C1 chassis and steering
This is puzzling to me...lots of talk on here about not being able to put an LS motor in a C1 and still use stock steering. It is tight, but seems to fit just fine.
Attached are some pics. We made side motor mounts around the steering. The exhaust are C6 manifolds that have been modified to fit between the rails without cutting the frame.
I am thinking to
A) either keep the side mounts and cut off the brackets for the stock motor, or
B) remake this using a motor plate on the LS motor and mount it like a stock motor.
The side mounts are rather easy. Using a motor plate and the stock mounts would be a bit more difficult, but I think that having this worked out to be a purely bolt-in swap, we would see more LS motors in otherwise original cars.
The trans is a T5 that will be put in at 17 degrees. With the Camaro tail section, it hits the stock shifter opening perfectly. The clutch is still mechanical, and also fits perfectly in the chassis. The crank centerline is stock, and the front of the block is in the same position as with the SBC motor.
Also, before the naysayers claim that the T5 is too weak to go behind an LS motor, it is more than enough transmission for an 8 inch tire on an otherwise stock C1. I have this on very good authority.
Also note that I do not want to upgrade to an SRIII, or to a Jim Meyers front end. The intent of this car is to maintain it driving exactly like an original car, but be able to cruise at highway speeds and run on gas that has ethanol added to it.
Thoughts? Any reasons why this won't work? Anyone else want to share if they have done this as well?
Attached are some pics. We made side motor mounts around the steering. The exhaust are C6 manifolds that have been modified to fit between the rails without cutting the frame.
I am thinking to
A) either keep the side mounts and cut off the brackets for the stock motor, or
B) remake this using a motor plate on the LS motor and mount it like a stock motor.
The side mounts are rather easy. Using a motor plate and the stock mounts would be a bit more difficult, but I think that having this worked out to be a purely bolt-in swap, we would see more LS motors in otherwise original cars.
The trans is a T5 that will be put in at 17 degrees. With the Camaro tail section, it hits the stock shifter opening perfectly. The clutch is still mechanical, and also fits perfectly in the chassis. The crank centerline is stock, and the front of the block is in the same position as with the SBC motor.
Also, before the naysayers claim that the T5 is too weak to go behind an LS motor, it is more than enough transmission for an 8 inch tire on an otherwise stock C1. I have this on very good authority.
Also note that I do not want to upgrade to an SRIII, or to a Jim Meyers front end. The intent of this car is to maintain it driving exactly like an original car, but be able to cruise at highway speeds and run on gas that has ethanol added to it.
Thoughts? Any reasons why this won't work? Anyone else want to share if they have done this as well?
05-27-2014, 12:35 PM
#2
Team Owner
I think you can fit anything in anything with enough work. Truth be told I don't think you can get full advantage of the LS power with the C1 frame. If I were hard set on keeping the frame then I would do a sleeper upgrade like the stock-appearing 500hp C1 that Devildog (Joe) built a while back. A stellar job...
05-27-2014, 12:57 PM
#3
I think you can fit anything in anything with enough work. Truth be told I don't think you can get full advantage of the LS power with the C1 frame. If I were hard set on keeping the frame then I would do a sleeper upgrade like the stock-appearing 500hp C1 that Devildog (Joe) built a while back. A stellar job...
The motor swap is more for reliability and convenience, as opposed to speed and power to the ground. The C1 chassis are wet noodles when it comes to handling.
But, the feel of driving a car from that era will be lost if everything is upgraded. My friends and I all have original cars from the 40's and 50's, and we all have problems with the ethanol fuel. This is to try to be able to keep the car as a daily driver.
Thanks for the info!
05-27-2014, 02:13 PM
#4
Safety Car
Frankie,
The motor swap is more for reliability and convenience, as opposed to speed and power to the ground. The C1 chassis are wet noodles when it comes to handling.
But, the feel of driving a car from that era will be lost if everything is upgraded. My friends and I all have original cars from the 40's and 50's, and we all have problems with the ethanol fuel. This is to try to be able to keep the car as a daily driver.
Thanks for the info!
The motor swap is more for reliability and convenience, as opposed to speed and power to the ground. The C1 chassis are wet noodles when it comes to handling.
But, the feel of driving a car from that era will be lost if everything is upgraded. My friends and I all have original cars from the 40's and 50's, and we all have problems with the ethanol fuel. This is to try to be able to keep the car as a daily driver.
Thanks for the info!
Glad to see you are still working on your car. Have you tried any of the ethanol free high test gasoline? There are several stations selling it near you, an Exxon in Advance, a Shell and a Pure station in Fork. I purchased some of the Shell high test and tested it - it does not contain ethanol. Haven't had a chance to run it in the '59 yet.
Charles
05-28-2014, 07:56 AM
#5
Intermediate
Jon,
This gives me hope. We ended up having a really nice SBC built for her '59. We pulled the 283 last weekend along with the 4 speed. One of the first things I did was to remove the old steering column and go with a modern R&P from Speed Direct (Steeroids) and it vastly improved the handling/safety. I understand that the motor mounts between an LS and SBC are going to be different. Would you mind some close-up pics of both the left and right motor mounts so that I can a very general ball-park idea of where I will be welding the new mounts in for the SBC? I agree with you, even with the aftermarket steering system, those mounts are going to be very close to the steering bracketry. But the minute the front mount is dropped it opens up a world of options for accessory drives and belts. Thanks for posting those pics, it does give me hope.
This gives me hope. We ended up having a really nice SBC built for her '59. We pulled the 283 last weekend along with the 4 speed. One of the first things I did was to remove the old steering column and go with a modern R&P from Speed Direct (Steeroids) and it vastly improved the handling/safety. I understand that the motor mounts between an LS and SBC are going to be different. Would you mind some close-up pics of both the left and right motor mounts so that I can a very general ball-park idea of where I will be welding the new mounts in for the SBC? I agree with you, even with the aftermarket steering system, those mounts are going to be very close to the steering bracketry. But the minute the front mount is dropped it opens up a world of options for accessory drives and belts. Thanks for posting those pics, it does give me hope.
05-28-2014, 12:24 PM
#6
Racer
Jon,
I understand that the motor mounts between an LS and SBC are going to be different. Would you mind some close-up pics of both the left and right motor mounts so that I can a very general ball-park idea of where I will be welding the new mounts in for the SBC? I agree with you, even with the aftermarket steering system, those mounts are going to be very close to the steering bracketry. But the minute the front mount is dropped it opens up a world of options for accessory drives and belts. Thanks for posting those pics, it does give me hope.
I understand that the motor mounts between an LS and SBC are going to be different. Would you mind some close-up pics of both the left and right motor mounts so that I can a very general ball-park idea of where I will be welding the new mounts in for the SBC? I agree with you, even with the aftermarket steering system, those mounts are going to be very close to the steering bracketry. But the minute the front mount is dropped it opens up a world of options for accessory drives and belts. Thanks for posting those pics, it does give me hope.
I would also like to see the motor mount photos. Thank you.
05-29-2014, 12:04 AM
#7
LS eng. in C1
This is puzzling to me...lots of talk on here about not being able to put an LS motor in a C1 and still use stock steering. It is tight, but seems to fit just fine.
Attached are some pics. We made side motor mounts around the steering. The exhaust are C6 manifolds that have been modified to fit between the rails without cutting the frame.
I am thinking to
A) either keep the side mounts and cut off the brackets for the stock motor, or
B) remake this using a motor plate on the LS motor and mount it like a stock motor.
The side mounts are rather easy. Using a motor plate and the stock mounts would be a bit more difficult, but I think that having this worked out to be a purely bolt-in swap, we would see more LS motors in otherwise original cars.
The trans is a T5 that will be put in at 17 degrees. With the Camaro tail section, it hits the stock shifter opening perfectly. The clutch is still mechanical, and also fits perfectly in the chassis. The crank centerline is stock, and the front of the block is in the same position as with the SBC motor.
Also, before the naysayers claim that the T5 is too weak to go behind an LS motor, it is more than enough transmission for an 8 inch tire on an otherwise stock C1. I have this on very good authority.
Also note that I do not want to upgrade to an SRIII, or to a Jim Meyers front end. The intent of this car is to maintain it driving exactly like an original car, but be able to cruise at highway speeds and run on gas that has ethanol added to it.
Thoughts? Any reasons why this won't work? Anyone else want to share if they have done this as well?
Attached are some pics. We made side motor mounts around the steering. The exhaust are C6 manifolds that have been modified to fit between the rails without cutting the frame.
I am thinking to
A) either keep the side mounts and cut off the brackets for the stock motor, or
B) remake this using a motor plate on the LS motor and mount it like a stock motor.
The side mounts are rather easy. Using a motor plate and the stock mounts would be a bit more difficult, but I think that having this worked out to be a purely bolt-in swap, we would see more LS motors in otherwise original cars.
The trans is a T5 that will be put in at 17 degrees. With the Camaro tail section, it hits the stock shifter opening perfectly. The clutch is still mechanical, and also fits perfectly in the chassis. The crank centerline is stock, and the front of the block is in the same position as with the SBC motor.
Also, before the naysayers claim that the T5 is too weak to go behind an LS motor, it is more than enough transmission for an 8 inch tire on an otherwise stock C1. I have this on very good authority.
Also note that I do not want to upgrade to an SRIII, or to a Jim Meyers front end. The intent of this car is to maintain it driving exactly like an original car, but be able to cruise at highway speeds and run on gas that has ethanol added to it.
Thoughts? Any reasons why this won't work? Anyone else want to share if they have done this as well?
Don
05-29-2014, 08:26 AM
#8
Intermediate
Don and Jon,
We have the 283 engine pulled from my wife's Vette as of last Saturday. I can't insert a picture (it wants a URL), but if you send me your email I can send you pics of what I am dealing with. We have had a slight change of the engine plans. We are going to go with a '85 TPI/700R4 combination (we have gotten a really good deal on it). That being said, where along the frame rails will I need to be looking to weld in the side mounts? Keep in mind, we are not using the original steering column (R&P from Steeroids/Speed Direct). Some of the mounting bracket hardware now resides near the front rails plus there's now a rack and pinion. I know I can't be the first person to ever switch to side-mounts on a
C1 Vette (but I guarantee I will mess it up if I don't get a little guidance). Thanks y'all
We have the 283 engine pulled from my wife's Vette as of last Saturday. I can't insert a picture (it wants a URL), but if you send me your email I can send you pics of what I am dealing with. We have had a slight change of the engine plans. We are going to go with a '85 TPI/700R4 combination (we have gotten a really good deal on it). That being said, where along the frame rails will I need to be looking to weld in the side mounts? Keep in mind, we are not using the original steering column (R&P from Steeroids/Speed Direct). Some of the mounting bracket hardware now resides near the front rails plus there's now a rack and pinion. I know I can't be the first person to ever switch to side-mounts on a
C1 Vette (but I guarantee I will mess it up if I don't get a little guidance). Thanks y'all
05-29-2014, 09:26 AM
#9
Safety Car
I can't give you any measurements but here is a picture of the side mounts I put on a '62 frame. Keep in mind that this car has a C4 front suspension so the front part of the frame will look different from stock.
Are you building the mounts yourself? If so here is how I did mine. With the original engine and mounts in the car take measurements (both horizontally and vertically) on the engine location relative to the frame. Then remove the old engine and mounts and place the new engine with the mounts installed in the frame. Use the measurements to locate the new engine in the same place as the old one. I used a RamJet 350 engine so I lowered the engine about 1.5" for hood clearance. Once the engine was in the proper location, I made the brackets that hold the engine mounts to the frame and tack welded them in place, removed the engine, and welded everything in place.
Charles
Are you building the mounts yourself? If so here is how I did mine. With the original engine and mounts in the car take measurements (both horizontally and vertically) on the engine location relative to the frame. Then remove the old engine and mounts and place the new engine with the mounts installed in the frame. Use the measurements to locate the new engine in the same place as the old one. I used a RamJet 350 engine so I lowered the engine about 1.5" for hood clearance. Once the engine was in the proper location, I made the brackets that hold the engine mounts to the frame and tack welded them in place, removed the engine, and welded everything in place.
Charles
05-30-2014, 04:23 PM
#10
More Pics
The motor mounts on an LS are different than the mounts on an SBC, so I wouldn't use my mount location as reference for SBC side mounts.
In the pictures, you can see that with the front of the block in the same location, then the right side head is approximately 1/2" closer to the firewall. I had a chance to look under the hood of "Carol's 62", the phenomenal car built by Charles and Carol Bernhart. There seems to be about 1 1/2 inches of space between the back of the right side head and the heater box. This looked to be about the same distance with many of the other C1's that attend our local club. With the location as shown here, this should fit.
Hopefully we will put the body on in the next few weeks for a 'fitting' and to make sure that the shifter hits the stock hole. Then, it is time to finish disassembly and get the body and chassis off to the painter.
In the pictures, you can see that with the front of the block in the same location, then the right side head is approximately 1/2" closer to the firewall. I had a chance to look under the hood of "Carol's 62", the phenomenal car built by Charles and Carol Bernhart. There seems to be about 1 1/2 inches of space between the back of the right side head and the heater box. This looked to be about the same distance with many of the other C1's that attend our local club. With the location as shown here, this should fit.
Hopefully we will put the body on in the next few weeks for a 'fitting' and to make sure that the shifter hits the stock hole. Then, it is time to finish disassembly and get the body and chassis off to the painter.
05-30-2014, 08:40 PM
#11
The motor mounts on an LS are different than the mounts on an SBC, so I wouldn't use my mount location as reference for SBC side mounts.
In the pictures, you can see that with the front of the block in the same location, then the right side head is approximately 1/2" closer to the firewall. I had a chance to look under the hood of "Carol's 62", the phenomenal car built by Charles and Carol Bernhart. There seems to be about 1 1/2 inches of space between the back of the right side head and the heater box. This looked to be about the same distance with many of the other C1's that attend our local club. With the location as shown here, this should fit.
Hopefully we will put the body on in the next few weeks for a 'fitting' and to make sure that the shifter hits the stock hole. Then, it is time to finish disassembly and get the body and chassis off to the painter.
In the pictures, you can see that with the front of the block in the same location, then the right side head is approximately 1/2" closer to the firewall. I had a chance to look under the hood of "Carol's 62", the phenomenal car built by Charles and Carol Bernhart. There seems to be about 1 1/2 inches of space between the back of the right side head and the heater box. This looked to be about the same distance with many of the other C1's that attend our local club. With the location as shown here, this should fit.
Hopefully we will put the body on in the next few weeks for a 'fitting' and to make sure that the shifter hits the stock hole. Then, it is time to finish disassembly and get the body and chassis off to the painter.
I hope your means of measuring reveals that you actually 'do have' clearance. I think a way to verify this is to measure from the body mounting holes forward to the point (or surface) where the engine mounts to the bellhousing face. Comparing the dimensions from body mount holes to bellhousing and the measurement from body mount hole to firewall should give you a 'go' or 'no go' answer. Sure hope you are luckyier than me.
Don
05-30-2014, 09:37 PM
#12
My experience is totally different from yours. You could ask the owners of the mentioned cars if they did make longer drive shafts to accomplish this clearance.
I hope your means of measuring reveals that you actually 'do have' clearance. I think a way to verify this is to measure from the body mounting holes forward to the point (or surface) where the engine mounts to the bellhousing face. Comparing the dimensions from body mount holes to bellhousing and the measurement from body mount hole to firewall should give you a 'go' or 'no go' answer. Sure hope you are luckyier than me.
Don
I hope your means of measuring reveals that you actually 'do have' clearance. I think a way to verify this is to measure from the body mounting holes forward to the point (or surface) where the engine mounts to the bellhousing face. Comparing the dimensions from body mount holes to bellhousing and the measurement from body mount hole to firewall should give you a 'go' or 'no go' answer. Sure hope you are luckyier than me.
Don
Thanks for the check. I made a quick measurement (although my eyes may be crooked after this week). I get 11" from the center of the front body mounts to the back of the head. I get 10" from the front flange on the firewall to the front body mounts. This would generally indicate that there will be 1" of clearance. Clearly we need to put the body back on and check the fit.
With regards to the driveshaft, it looks like it is going to have to be shortened. One change I am making on the car is to use '54 passenger car spindles to drop the front 1", and I will add lowering blocks under the rearend housing to also drop it 1". Luckily, I am good friends with some people that build transmissions and driveshafts, so this is not a headache.
Can anyone share their experiences, or take some pictures of the gap between the back of the head and the firewall?
