change the points to electronic upgrade Good or Bad
04-16-2014, 06:57 PM
#41
Heel & Toe
Member Since: May 2011
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I have Crane XR-i points replacement modules in my 65 coupe and a 67 Camaro. Very easy to install, uses stock coil, has a rev limiter. Installed many years ago. Both cars seem to idle much nicer.
04-17-2014, 12:34 AM
#42
Burning Brakes
Tom,
Your shop is an embarassment! It's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to neat, clean and organized. I had our house built with a 6car garage, which was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more room than I needed! Now I'm getting ready to build another 6car garage next to the house (and bricked to match the house). SURELY that will be enough room!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your shop is an embarassment! It's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to neat, clean and organized. I had our house built with a 6car garage, which was WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more room than I needed! Now I'm getting ready to build another 6car garage next to the house (and bricked to match the house). SURELY that will be enough room!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...the shop all messy like when I was fabricating shelving ...
...or all cleaned up after I was done and they were installed. You know you are most welcome.
Thomas
04-17-2014, 06:43 AM
#43
Instructor
I'll throw in my 2 cents on this issue, 8-9 years ago I bought a pertronix unit and the car ran a lot better, after 3 years the pertronix unit failed but it was my fault the keys was left in the on position too long, so a replaced the unit with another one. Since the dizzy was original and I had the 283 rebuilt a purchased a new perttonix dizzy, car ran real strong.
Taking the car out of hibernation this year car started just fine as usual, a week later no start, no spark, put the old dizzy with the perttonix unit, still no spark, put the points back in and it fired and runs good.
I was lucky the the failure was in the garage not on the road, so with these failures I'm sticking with points, and getting the tired dizzy rebuilt
Taking the car out of hibernation this year car started just fine as usual, a week later no start, no spark, put the old dizzy with the perttonix unit, still no spark, put the points back in and it fired and runs good.
I was lucky the the failure was in the garage not on the road, so with these failures I'm sticking with points, and getting the tired dizzy rebuilt
04-17-2014, 07:27 AM
#44
Team Owner
My experience is similar to Tom's - never a failure in over 20 years of Petronix use WITH and MSD Blaster II coil in a variety of classic cars; Fords/Chevys BB/SB. The only failures I've seen in others' cars are improper installation, leaving the key on with the older Pertronix units and faulty FlameThrower coils.
04-17-2014, 01:31 PM
#45
Melting Slicks
The biggest benefit to this "upgrade" is that you don't have to change your points. Chevrolet recommends (in the owner's manual) changing them every 12,000 miles. My car has done 12,000 miles in the last 30 years.
I installed a Pertronix system sometime in the last 30 years. So you'd think I'd be pretty happy about right now. Yup, I'm sitting pretty. No changing points for me. Saves me at least ½ an hour every 30 years.
04-17-2014, 01:44 PM
#46
Pro
Well in my old Nova, ie: ChevyII, my points rubbing block wore down more than once, slowly changing dwell as she wore down. I would think the Pertronix does not solve this issue?
Anyway went back to factory TI, than later to the MSD tach drive. I just like magnetic pickup, it totally eliminates all the nonsense. FWIW the MSD setup really made a noticeable driveability difference, but the TI distributor mighta been needing a rebuild anyway...
Furthermore if points were/are so great, they would still be using them. They are cheaper, yet manufacturers do not use 'em. Imho this proves beyond any doubt what the superior technology is.
Anyway went back to factory TI, than later to the MSD tach drive. I just like magnetic pickup, it totally eliminates all the nonsense. FWIW the MSD setup really made a noticeable driveability difference, but the TI distributor mighta been needing a rebuild anyway...
Furthermore if points were/are so great, they would still be using them. They are cheaper, yet manufacturers do not use 'em. Imho this proves beyond any doubt what the superior technology is.
Last edited by Tiros; 04-17-2014 at 01:47 PM.
04-17-2014, 01:54 PM
#47
Well in my old Nova, ie: ChevyII, my points rubbing block wore down more than once, slowly changing dwell as she wore down. I would think the Pertronix does not solve this issue?
Anyway went back to factory TI, than later to the MSD tach drive. I just like magnetic pickup, it totally eliminates all the nonsense. FWIW the MSD setup really made a noticeable driveability difference, but the TI distributor mighta been needing a rebuild anyway...
Furthermore if points were/are so great, they would still be using them. They are cheaper, yet manufacturers do not use 'em. Imho this proves beyond any doubt what the superior technology is.
Anyway went back to factory TI, than later to the MSD tach drive. I just like magnetic pickup, it totally eliminates all the nonsense. FWIW the MSD setup really made a noticeable driveability difference, but the TI distributor mighta been needing a rebuild anyway...
Furthermore if points were/are so great, they would still be using them. They are cheaper, yet manufacturers do not use 'em. Imho this proves beyond any doubt what the superior technology is.
04-18-2014, 01:06 PM
#48
Pro
My GTI has a coil for each plug, the computer fires 'em at will. Even less parts, no distributor, no plug wires, rotor etc. Less parts = less to go wrong = cheaper = more reliable.
From an engineering perspective, you really can not compare the trigger signal quality or reliability of a magnetic pickup, to a mechanical switch being bumped open and closed by a cam.
04-18-2014, 01:23 PM
#49
Team Owner
Not sure what you mean. Isn't pertronix a hall effect (aka magnetic) pickup? Isn't that how manufacturers have been doing it since they got away from points? (fully computer controlled coils notwithstanding)
My GTI has a coil for each plug, the computer fires 'em at will. Even less parts, no distributor, no plug wires, rotor etc. Less parts = less to go wrong = cheaper = more reliable.
From an engineering perspective, you really can not compare the trigger signal quality or reliability of a magnetic pickup, to a mechanical switch being bumped open and closed by a cam.
My GTI has a coil for each plug, the computer fires 'em at will. Even less parts, no distributor, no plug wires, rotor etc. Less parts = less to go wrong = cheaper = more reliable.
From an engineering perspective, you really can not compare the trigger signal quality or reliability of a magnetic pickup, to a mechanical switch being bumped open and closed by a cam.
04-18-2014, 01:40 PM
#50
I find it amusing that people modify just one component of the ignition system leaving the other weak links still intact thinking they've achieved something substantial.
There again, the debate will never be resolved, much like the 'tastes great/less filling' sessions regarding engine oil.
04-18-2014, 01:47 PM
#51
Team Owner
I don't know what other 'weak links' are referred to, but if you fixed the weakest link; e.g. electromechanical contact devices - you are big money ahead - works for points, works for voltage regulators, and, windshield wiper motors...
04-18-2014, 01:52 PM
#52
Pro
04-18-2014, 01:59 PM
#53
Pot calling kettle black on your second point?
04-18-2014, 02:20 PM
#54
Pro
Doesn't HEI use a mag pickup?
So is the TI setup, also a half measure? The TI setup exactly substitutes an electronic switch for a mechanical switch. I wonder why GM decided to move away from the superior point driven technology..even though it cost them more per unit....
Pot calling kettle black? I am not the one defending the old, deprecated, technology. Are you actually saying that mechanical switches have some advantage to a solid state pickup with no moving parts? What exactly is your position?
BTW do use use points?
Last edited by Tiros; 04-18-2014 at 02:32 PM.
04-18-2014, 02:29 PM
#55
Not sure what you mean again?
Doesn't HEI use a mag pickup?
Pot calling kettle black? I am not the one defending the old, deprecated, technology. Are you actually saying that mechanical switches have some advantage to a solid state pickup with no moving parts? What exactly is your position?
BTW do use use points?
Doesn't HEI use a mag pickup?
Pot calling kettle black? I am not the one defending the old, deprecated, technology. Are you actually saying that mechanical switches have some advantage to a solid state pickup with no moving parts? What exactly is your position?
BTW do use use points?
04-18-2014, 02:43 PM
#56
Pro
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system"
Electronic ignition:
The disadvantage of the mechanical system is the use of breaker points to interrupt the low-voltage high-current through the primary winding of the coil; the points are subject to mechanical wear where they ride the cam to open and shut, as well as oxidation and burning at the contact surfaces from the constant sparking. They require regular adjustment to compensate for wear, and the opening of the contact breakers, which is responsible for spark timing, is subject to mechanical variations.
In addition, the spark voltage is also dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency. A mechanical contact breaker system cannot control an average ignition current of more than about 3 A while still giving a reasonable service life, and this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed.
I would add that a mag pickup can work even it its wet. There is nothing to wear out, ever, its just a coil of wire. Clearly at high RPM points just can't hang, that's why dual point came out as "half-measure system" till a better solution (solid state) was available.
Electronic ignition:
The disadvantage of the mechanical system is the use of breaker points to interrupt the low-voltage high-current through the primary winding of the coil; the points are subject to mechanical wear where they ride the cam to open and shut, as well as oxidation and burning at the contact surfaces from the constant sparking. They require regular adjustment to compensate for wear, and the opening of the contact breakers, which is responsible for spark timing, is subject to mechanical variations.
In addition, the spark voltage is also dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency. A mechanical contact breaker system cannot control an average ignition current of more than about 3 A while still giving a reasonable service life, and this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed.
I would add that a mag pickup can work even it its wet. There is nothing to wear out, ever, its just a coil of wire. Clearly at high RPM points just can't hang, that's why dual point came out as "half-measure system" till a better solution (solid state) was available.
Last edited by Tiros; 04-18-2014 at 02:52 PM.
04-18-2014, 02:52 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system"
Electronic ignition:
The disadvantage of the mechanical system is the use of breaker points to interrupt the low-voltage high-current through the primary winding of the coil; the points are subject to mechanical wear where they ride the cam to open and shut, as well as oxidation and burning at the contact surfaces from the constant sparking. They require regular adjustment to compensate for wear, and the opening of the contact breakers, which is responsible for spark timing, is subject to mechanical variations.
In addition, the spark voltage is also dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency. A mechanical contact breaker system cannot control an average ignition current of more than about 3 A while still giving a reasonable service life, and this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed.
I would add that a mag pickup can work even it its wet. There is nothing to wear out, ever, its just a coil of wire.
Electronic ignition:
The disadvantage of the mechanical system is the use of breaker points to interrupt the low-voltage high-current through the primary winding of the coil; the points are subject to mechanical wear where they ride the cam to open and shut, as well as oxidation and burning at the contact surfaces from the constant sparking. They require regular adjustment to compensate for wear, and the opening of the contact breakers, which is responsible for spark timing, is subject to mechanical variations.
In addition, the spark voltage is also dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency. A mechanical contact breaker system cannot control an average ignition current of more than about 3 A while still giving a reasonable service life, and this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed.
I would add that a mag pickup can work even it its wet. There is nothing to wear out, ever, its just a coil of wire.
Has anyone heard of an optical trigger replacement kit rather than
magnetic
04-18-2014, 02:54 PM
#58
Team Owner
04-18-2014, 04:44 PM
#59
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system"
Electronic ignition:
The disadvantage of the mechanical system is the use of breaker points to interrupt the low-voltage high-current through the primary winding of the coil; the points are subject to mechanical wear where they ride the cam to open and shut, as well as oxidation and burning at the contact surfaces from the constant sparking. They require regular adjustment to compensate for wear, and the opening of the contact breakers, which is responsible for spark timing, is subject to mechanical variations.
In addition, the spark voltage is also dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency. A mechanical contact breaker system cannot control an average ignition current of more than about 3 A while still giving a reasonable service life, and this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed.
I would add that a mag pickup can work even it its wet. There is nothing to wear out, ever, its just a coil of wire. Clearly at high RPM points just can't hang, that's why dual point came out as "half-measure system" till a better solution (solid state) was available.
Electronic ignition:
The disadvantage of the mechanical system is the use of breaker points to interrupt the low-voltage high-current through the primary winding of the coil; the points are subject to mechanical wear where they ride the cam to open and shut, as well as oxidation and burning at the contact surfaces from the constant sparking. They require regular adjustment to compensate for wear, and the opening of the contact breakers, which is responsible for spark timing, is subject to mechanical variations.
In addition, the spark voltage is also dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency. A mechanical contact breaker system cannot control an average ignition current of more than about 3 A while still giving a reasonable service life, and this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed.
I would add that a mag pickup can work even it its wet. There is nothing to wear out, ever, its just a coil of wire. Clearly at high RPM points just can't hang, that's why dual point came out as "half-measure system" till a better solution (solid state) was available.
"They require regular adjustment"
Correct. Once per year at most, once per decade for many given the average mileage these cars get.
"dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency"
Yup, they need replacing every 5 years at worst when this happens. Once every few decades for Joe Average.
"this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed."
How did these cars manage to operate so well for the first 30 odd years they existed without the miracle of pertronix?
If I had to quote from a wiki in an attempt to bolster up a weak argument, I'd quit while I was behind.
To answer a previous question, I have points in all my vehicles that originally came with them. I converted some of them over to electronic units decades ago and was completely and immediately underwhelmed by the absolute lack of difference in operation, and eventually switched back after they failed.
04-18-2014, 05:01 PM
#60
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
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"They require regular adjustment"
Correct. Once per year at most, once per decade for many given the average mileage these cars get.
"dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency"
Yup, they need replacing every 5 years at worst when this happens. Once every few decades for Joe Average.
"this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed."
How did these cars manage to operate so well for the first 30 odd years they existed without the miracle of pertronix?
If I had to quote from a wiki in an attempt to bolster up a weak argument, I'd quit while I was behind.
To answer a previous question, I have points in all my vehicles that originally came with them. I converted some of them over to electronic units decades ago and was completely and immediately underwhelmed by the absolute lack of difference in operation, and eventually switched back after they failed.
Correct. Once per year at most, once per decade for many given the average mileage these cars get.
"dependent on contact effectiveness, and poor sparking can lead to lower engine efficiency"
Yup, they need replacing every 5 years at worst when this happens. Once every few decades for Joe Average.
"this may limit the power of the spark and ultimate engine speed."
How did these cars manage to operate so well for the first 30 odd years they existed without the miracle of pertronix?
If I had to quote from a wiki in an attempt to bolster up a weak argument, I'd quit while I was behind.
To answer a previous question, I have points in all my vehicles that originally came with them. I converted some of them over to electronic units decades ago and was completely and immediately underwhelmed by the absolute lack of difference in operation, and eventually switched back after they failed.
For my part, I have NEVER had a set of points completely fail to where the engine would run except under storage conditions. All it took was a quicky swipe through the contacts to get the engine going.
I have had electronic triggers fail and when they fail, the engine stops. Re-adjusting or cleaning will NOT get the thing going again. You're dead in the water until you diagnose/replace the defective part. Not too easy alongside the road with any aftermarket gizmo.
Otherwise, spending $140-$150 on one of these electronic whiz bang gizmos seems like a waste of money for any potential return on investment whether it's real or imagined.
Last edited by MikeM; 04-18-2014 at 05:21 PM.
