gr8corvette

I was looking at a car for sale the other day. It is out of my price range, but I got to wondering about some of the claims.
The standard claim is "restored" which could mean anything from new seat covers to a nut and bolt restoration. This is a subjective term, so I accept that everyone has their own definition. Hopefully, this thread will not turn into a debate of what "restored" means.
The claims that got me was the "Top Flight" and "Bloomington Gold" claims (which are out of my price range since I am looking for a daily driver). Those claims should be easily verifiable as they are not subjective, but an exact thing. Out of curiosity, I decided to try to verify the claims. Apparently, something that should be posted as a "brag" is guarded piece of information that you need to pay big bucks to verify.
I can understand the specific results of judging are details and lists to be something in a data base that has to be looked up, so there would be a cost involved. But I naively thought there would be a public list of the cars and people that were awarded this prestigious honor. I am not being sarcastic, if someone cares about their car that much to to get those awards, shouldn't they be out there for all the world to see.
For example, NCRS charges $300 to verify. Maybe I am reading the website incorrectly (https://www.ncrs.org/services.php).
Is there a public website that contains this information?
(Note: I am not a present NCRS member. I think is it a great organization, but has not been something I kept up with.)

JohnZ

No, there isn't. However, if a car has Top Flighted, the owner will have the marked-up judging sheets, the certificate, and the ribbon; if Bloomington Gold is claimed, the owner will have that certificate.

Frankie the Fink

What JohnZ says is true (of course). However a trend is for owners to get a car judged to establish the provenance and then drive it and it gradually gets tired and the condition can drift from a BG or TF car to a normal driver but the owner can still produce credentials for the awards. The more nefarious types will get the car judged/awarded then sell off original parts and put repro stuff on then try to sell the car as a BG or TF car. Original KH wheels are a good example.

As always, buyer beware.

Anyway - what do you want with a THIRD Corvette - I thought the wife had you on the 12 step program...

gr8corvette

You can never have too much chocolate or Corvettes. I am always looking for the elusive great buy of the century!
I kind of like the look of the earlier C1's and I am looking around for an affordable, yet decent quality driver. Unfortunately, affordable and quality are opposite terms.

gr8corvette

The problem is when the current seller claims the previous owner had it judged as Top Flight etc, but has no documentation. That seems to be like claiming it was once owned by Elvis and then a little old lady that only drove it on Sundays. No way to easily verify!
But seriously, these are very impressive awards. I always incorrectly thought it would be proudly posted somewhere for all the world to see and covet!

Nowhere Man

The problem with TF cars are some people after judging is remove all the correct ginger bread iteams that are hard to find and replace them with repros. So unless you know all the correct stuff I would not give the arward that much marit. It's only good on that day it was judged.

Also depending on how long ago it was judged means a lot too. The judging manuals have gotten way thicker over the years

gr8corvette

I can't blame them for advertising, but I always wonder about a "totally restored, frame off restoration" done in the 70's or 80's. Time degrades anything. Even a much beloved car, that is well taken care of is, is no longer a restored vehicle after that much time.

bluestreak63

Kinda makes you think...restore a vette with all the correct parts (NOS or original), get it certified, TF'd whatever and then take all the correct parts off and replace with reproduction parts. Then sell it to an unsuspecting buyer who thinks they are buying an award winning vette with orginal parts only to find out later that they are reproduction parts. Then get another cheap non-original vette and use the original parts again to restore, get it certified, TF'd, etc and the wheel goes round and round.

62Jeff

The rules change due to increases in knowledge as well.

My 62 achieved a Gold score at Bloomington in 1990, yet I'm sure even if the car were in the same condition today as it was in 1990, it would not score nearly as high due to what has been learned about what is correct and incorrect.

Nowhere Man

It's a very vicious circle and it happens a lot with the larger collectors or dealers.

Powershift

I believe that NCRS will validate whether a car has achieved that level of award and when (darts) based on the VIN number. They don't provide all the details or scoresheets, but will confirm the level of award. Cost is reasonable.

I can get additional details and costs if needed. Just ask.

Larry

Nowhere Man

Like I said a TF is only good on the day it was judged. NCRS will sell you the date and location of the event where it was achieved. I think they can get you a copy of the score sheets as well

RAO-3

I have been looking at cars, both with and without awards mentioned in their ads, and really only take it into account if it can be proved and the seller seems honest, and even then only put a certain amount of weight to it. Just too many variables.

JohnZ

Nope. NCRS National doesn't have (and never had) the score sheets; they're returned to the owner after the meet, and no copies are made. If the car was judged while in possession of the current owner, he has the score sheets. All the NCRS National has is the Summary Sheet.

ricks327

My complaint with NCRS about obtaining the level of award received is that they would charge a NCRS member $300 to research and validate an award he received. So, let's say I had a house fire or theft at my house and I wanted to verify to a potential buyer of my car that it received a Top Flight award, NCRS would charge me, as a NCRS member, $300 for a letter stating that my car received a Top Flight. If you wanted to charge that $300 to a subsequent owner, I have no complaint with that fee. BUT to charge $300 to a dues paying NCRS member that wants to get a "letter" (No blue ribbon or certificate) to state that his car received an award is outrageous. Charge me a nominal fee, no problem, charge me $300, call me stupid to pay that amount. It was for this reason, I let my NCRS membership expire.
Rick

Frankie the Fink

Hopefully this doesn't turn into another NCRS bashing thread.

Alan, are you buying something in the '53-'55 line up or a '56/'57?
I know you already have the '61.

Personally I could see a '56/'56 but the earlier cars are too "Buck Rogers" looking for me.

gr8corvette

My intention was not to let this turn into an NCRS bashing thread. I think they are a great organization, but money (i.e., fees) are the necessary evil that turns a lot of people off about "hobby" organizations. I personally agree that $300 is way too much to charge anyone for this service. Since membership is easy to get, they should only allow members to apply for the information and charge a more reasonable amount. That would be a win win for everyone. They would probably have more members and folks would be able to interact with them more.

Yep, I am looking for a driver in the '53 to '55 range. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (even if their opinion is wrong ). I kind of like the way they look. However, the probability of finding a '53 or '55 driver I can afford is low, so I am looking mainly at '54.

Frankie the Fink

Well - they are out there.

An original, but slightly tired looking '54 driver was at Kissimmee two years back for $49,900 and I think it eventually sold after the NCRS meet for $45,000. About as good a deal as you'll find I'm thinking...

Mike Ward

NCRS judging does not establish any sort of provenance or authenticity. It's frightening to see how many buyers are not aware of this and ***-u-me the award proves that the car is 'the real deal'.



Just get the car judged again- there's no limit as to how many times this can be done and is MUCH cheaper than the $300 fee.

ricks327

Mike,
I agree that getting the car judged again is a viable option but would point out 2 things.
1) The cost is well over $100 and requires a lot of personal work and hours to get it ready.
2) What if you had the car judged within the last year.

I don't mean to bash NCRS, as I feel it serves a great purpose, but they need to charge a more reasonable fee to a NCRS member to research what award a car received. How long and what expense does it for take NCRS to search their computer database and to print out a letter and send it off to a member? $300 seems way off base. What does your local government charge for a simple FOIA request? A 1 page FOIA response is usually less than $10.00. I think NCRS would have a hard time justifying a $300.00 fee but, as previously stated, NCRS is a great organization but needs to rethink the $300 fee.
Regards,
Rick