MikeM

If that lifter is oiling the rocker arm, replace the lifter.

midyearvette

i guess i don't understand this thread....how does a collapsed lifter hold the valve off it's seat?
op claims he backed it off 1/2 turn and the valve seated, does he have solids?...wtf.......

claysmoker

If the lifter is collapsed and the lifter piston is all the way down, 1/2 turn will easily open the valve and hold it open.

I have a feeling this engine is dry and the lifters are semi or fully collapsed.

midyearvette

ok, i guess you are saying he adjusted the valve with the plunger all the way down??......how the heck do you do that.....maybe he does not know the difference of a pumped up lifter vs. one that is not??.....must have had a lot of threads showing on that stud.....

if so, then this is why some folks should adjust them running......

claysmoker

To the OP. What length pushrods, what type lifters and what rocker arms are you running? I have an engine with the same cam and I'm curious.

claysmoker

The only way I've had any success with the initial setup on hydraulic lifters is to adjust them down until all the play is taken up and not compress the lifter piston at all. Then oil prime the engine until you have oil running out of all the rocker arms. You can then run the engine and set the lifters as desired, or you can crank them down cold 1/2 turn and not worry about it. I've found hydraulics very forgiving of adjustment variations. I never set them down more than a 1/4 turn hot and running myself.

midyearvette

how true, that is a super method. i guess there are times when the spring for the plunger does not give enough resistance for others to feel it but a pumped lifter probably does
back in the day, a mentor of mine used a paper clip for a gauge between the lifter retaining clip and cup, then installed the intake.
everybody does it differently....

MikeM

If you are in the dark here, join the club.

The OP starts out saying he has over 200 pounds compression and wants to draw a parallel between the compression readings and a valve lifter that appears to be stuck or otherwise not functioning properly. I don't get it where he's going either??????????????

The easiest way to adjust hydraulic lifters for me is to turn the cam so the lifter is on the heel of the cam and then twirl the pushrod between my fingers to feel when all slack is removed and then give the nut another 1/8 turn and I'm done. Doesn't matter if the lifters are new or used.

If you're trying to adjust a hydraulic valve lifter and a 1/8 turn on the adjusting nut either way gives you either a click or a miss, it's time to check the function of that lifter and why it's not responding the way it should. It's that simple and the compression has nothing to do with it. And neither does the grind of the cam or whether it's advanced or retarded.

TCracingCA

Me and MikeM generally don't really get along all that well, but this is a good observation and advice.

I don't have much time today, but it sounds like he hasn't actually fired the engine. Thus maybe needs to spin the drill to repressurize the system after doing compression tests and valve adjustments etc.. Also priming an engine might not be sufficient to pump up the lifters, like when it runs on the actual oil pump! Thus maybe rotate the engine and then prime, and rotate again and prime, and rotate again and prime putting the lifters in differing cycles during the process of priming. On the edge office units that I have used, I index them (rotate them when dropping into the bore a certain way in the assemble process. This very reason is why most engine builders will put some oil in a can and squirt it directly into the lifter to prime. Also assembly lube can gum up stuff. I have seen some of those create problems on start up. I use old fashion gorilla snott (home mix).

MikeM

He said the engine had "a miss"(fire in one or more cylinders)! That would indicate he had had it running.

65air_coupe

Wow, I'm away for a day and tons of mis-perceptions arise. I see part of the problem is of my own creation. I had another thread going where I was talking about the status of the installation and first turn of the key. Then I started this thread to learn more about high compression readings. Things got muddy from there when I mentioned how I got to this point regarding the problem lifter...my fault.

I'll try and clear up some of the confusion. When I first assembled the motor, I set the lifter adjustment cold following one of the many approaches one can find. Prior to this motor, I've always set hydraulics hot and running. I figured the cold setup would get me close and then I could finish as always.

I primed the motor (drill and dummy distributor) for an extended period. I had oil flowing up to all but one or two rockers and when I pulled the pushrods on those to make sure they weren't plugged, I found they were nearly full so surmised the drill motor speed wasn't high enough to move a sufficient quantity everywhere it needed to go. And I've read others had similar results so I moved on.

Then I started the motor and noticed right away it was running rough. I used an IR thermometer to find non-firing cylinder(s). Then I tested the compression and found 0 compression. The only reason had to be a valve not seating. So I backed off 1/2 turn and it jumped up to 240psi.

That made me want to check the others and seeing those numbers brought several questions to mind. Isn't that unusual? And if so, why? And also what problems will that bring? So I started this thread. And while it's gotten off-track to some degree, I'll answer some of the questions that have been posed.

Claysmoker, I'm running OEM V6 lifters (modified non-roller block w/short bores), Crane Gold 1.5 rockers. Couldn't tell you the pushrod length off the top of my head but likely not relevant since I'm probably not running the same heads as you.

MikeM, like others, you've gotten off track because of my mention of the lifter problem.

Midyearvette, I think you answered your own questions after reading Claysmokers methods.

TCRacing, I think you're onto something regarding my lifter issue. I may have a lifter that had no oil, was pre-adjusted with it collapsed thus lifting the valve off the seat, and hasn't pumped up to where it should be. I'll back off more on the adjustment and let the engine warm up and see if it will pump up.

As for the central theme of the thread, first I need to confirm that the gauge is indeed accurate. If that's true, I think the message I'm getting is I may have a problem with cam timing. I used a Cloyes double roller chain set with a 3 key-way gear. I have little doubt I set it at zero, that's the kind of thing you check, double check, and triple check. But last I checked, I'm also still human too. Any easy way to confirm? Cam timing that is, the human part is easy!

Sorry for the length, wasn't online to answer questions or clarify misunderstandings as they arose.

65air_coupe

Well, I just suffered a small setback. While I was looking over the valvetrain, I noticed some wear marks on the pushrods. I pulled a couple out and see that they apparently are not hardened as is needed when running in guides. So Monday I'll be calling a few vendors and see who might ship next week. Besides that, I still need to check the compression gauge accuracy and then decide what if anything to do about the subject of this thread.

claysmoker

I have a good set of 7.3" if you can use that length.

TCracingCA

It became confusing. Thus I think we are all waiting on some of the recommendations made, to be done. The scored pushrods is not a good thing!

65air_coupe

Yeah, I do understand. And that's one of my problems with this project in general. I get started then get interrupted and don't get back to it for days, weeks, months at a time. It's hard to remember where you were and what was next of the list.

The good news not related to this thread is that before I discovered the scoring on the pushrods, the suspect lifter had pumped up and the engine was firing on all cylinders. As for that lifter, when I made my measurements for pushrods, I disassembled one and made it 'solid' with an internal spacer. At first I thought I didn't put it back together correctly and that was my problem. That wasn't the case but apparently since it had no oil, I didn't pick up on the fact that I collapsed it completely when doing the cold adjustment. The internal check valve will hold the plunger down against the spring. Once I backed off the rocker adjustment and did a hot adjustment, everything was fine.

Haven't confirmed the gauge yet, that's next on my list aside from ordering a set of hardened pushrods.

Any ideas on an easy check of cam timing without removing the timing case cover? I'm guessing I could set a dial indicator on a rocker arm, mark the crank pulley in degrees, then using the cam specs determine when that valve should either open or some other point on its travel. I did confirm #1 TDC when doing the engine assembly and set the marker accordingly. It would have been off 6* otherwise!

Claysmoker, I checked and 7.300" would be too short. Thanks for the offer though.

65air_coupe

Well, I've compared my compression gauge with one belonging to a mechanic friend and find it to be equal to his. So has anyone else seen compression results like these, 220-235psi? And back to my original question - am I going to have a problem?

Westlotorn

How big are your heads? 58, 64, 68, 72 or 76 CC.
A friend used to modify boat engines for customers to make more power.
He would take the stock 350 stroke it to 383 and put Vortec heads on.
I think the Vortec heads were 64cc, with the 383 cubic inch engines this would have cranking compression of 215 -220 running flat top pistons. They ran really strong.
If you have 64 cc heads on your 400 Cubic inch your compression might be right in line with this combination unless you are running dished pistons.

65air_coupe

They are Twisted Wedge G1 and I believe 64CC. Pistons are not dished.

Going to be a fun ride I guess.

midyearvette

one of the strongest small blocks i ever built for the street uses those heads......030 over 350, 30-30 cam and dual carter 500 cfm carbs, total seal rings with 225 lbs. cranking compression. flat tops.
it's in a '77 vette with a muncie and a 3.70 gear
car was built in the early 90's and has over 100K miles....we did have a spring issue with two broken ones ( as shipped) just after 100 or so miles, replaced with crane units and been trouble free since. driver power shifts at 6500 and really beats this car hard on occasion....

Matt Gruber

a problem?
well, the cam wasn't degreed, so can i assume, piston to valve clearance wasn't checked either?
a bent valve would be a problem.
2 ways to find out!
good luck! HNY!