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NORTH TONAWANDA - A car collector's complaint has led to criminal charges against a man who sold him a 1966 Chevrolet Corvette, alleging that the Vehicle Identification Number plate on the classic sports car was forged.
Robert C. Ernst, of North Tonawanda, who said he found about the problem when he and his car were disqualified from a car show in Ontario, is accusing Ronald A. Ellis, of Wilson, of ripping him off.
"I'm out $75,000," Ernst said. "He knew the value of the car [on the collectors market] wouldn't be there without the original VIN tag on it."
Ellis' attorney, Herbert L. Greenman, said Ellis had nothing to do with the replacement VIN tag.
I really don't know if the guy suing has much ground...but I only married a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so I'm probably wrong.
He said he was out the $75,000 he spent restoring it, but this is misleading. He owns the car, he restored a real car, and he has the car and parts. Though it has diminished investor value, the only thing wrong with it is that it no longer has the original VIN plate, which was obviously tossed when whoever stole it in 1966 removed it. But it looks to have a valid title. Not sure why he thinks he's out the money.
Fine to go after the seller or whoever for claimed forgery of the VIN plate, but the number is the actual car's VIN. I'd say get the new Georgia recovered plate put back on and that's all. Still has value. Beautiful car.
This is how LAWYERS make money.
Not a Black or White issue, but a Grey area.
Ah, but you left out the part where I said to go after the seller or whoever forged it. The point I was making, is the guy is claiming he lost everything, which isn't true. He's not out the $75,000... this comment he made was for civil court in the eventual lawsuit. What he has is the real car, but forged VIN metal plate of the actual car's real VIN number.
All of us have bought vehicles before. What I'm wondering is when you get a title, it clearly lists the vehicle's VIN on the certificate. A stolen/recovered vehicle then titled missing its VIN plate would note the GA7558 state assigned number on title. The buyer would most likely check this with the car.
The burden of proof will be on the District Attorney's Office to prove the seller knowingly removed the Ga. assigned VIN and affixed the fake VIN and did it with the intention to defraud the victim. That won't be easy, unless the person that sold the car to the defendant can testify that the GA assigned VIN was intact when he sold it to the defendant.
The burden of proof will be on the District Attorney's Office to prove the seller knowingly removed the Ga. assigned VIN and affixed the fake VIN and did it with the intention to defraud the victim. That won't be easy, unless the person that sold the car to the defendant can testify that the GA assigned VIN was intact when he sold it to the defendant.
It's really tricky, legally. The VIN # is not fake, but the actual car's VIN #. It seems that whoever installed the new/forged VIN plate using the actual car's true VIN # didn't do it to say this vehicle is another vehicle, but is most likely guilty of faking the originality of the metal plate itself, whatever charge that is, and then representing as original if he did.
But I don't know. Like I said, a recovered car with a new state issued metal plate (which was sometime removed and replaced with fake VIN metal plate) should show that number on the new title. And the buyer should have looked at the title and noticed it, especially a reseller who has repeatedly bought and sold a few Corvettes already.
It's really tricky, legally. The VIN # is not fake, but the actual car's VIN #.
IIRC, the VIN tag matches the trans number, but the frame number is toast. Or maybe I mixing up threads, but with no frame number, there is no way to verify.
As others said- How is he going to prove the last guy is the forger? The car is old and the theft is almost as old. The title is legal and the PO may or may not have anything to do with the tag.
The guy bought a good (and LEGAL) car, made it a nicer car apparently in hopes of making a return, and didn't verify the originality of that plate. He's out a bit of money- probably not as much as he's trumping it up to be- and wants to blame the last guy. He could have bought the car with a faked block stamp and not known enough to catch it...too bad. Same deal. I think he's a whiner.
As others said- How is he going to prove the last guy is the forger? The car is old and the theft is almost as old. The title is legal and the PO may or may not have anything to do with the tag.
The guy bought a good (and LEGAL) car, made it a nicer car apparently in hopes of making a return, and didn't verify the originality of that plate. He's out a bit of money- probably not as much as he's trumping it up to be- and wants to blame the last guy. He could have bought the car with a faked block stamp and not known enough to catch it...too bad. Same deal. I think he's a whiner.
Am I missing something? I didn't see that there was any indication that the car was stolen; rather, a replacement VIN tag was affixed. Please clarify.
original vin number is now fake. the correct vin # is the state assigned #. "Ernst said the Georgia Department of Motor Vehicles then placed the GA7558 sticker on the car because the original VIN plate had been removed."
This is criminal, no question, you can't just change vin numbers cause you want to.
This plays like dominoes, back to who did it.
If the car changed ownership so many times in the immediate area, in recent years, then the vin would have been recorded with each title transfer. If the seller took possession with the Georgia vin plate, I would say the present owner has a strong case.
Am I missing something? I didn't see that there was any indication that the car was stolen; rather, a replacement VIN tag was affixed. Please clarify.
I may have read it too quickly...I understood the car was stolen and recoved in the '60's and has been carrying a GA replacement vin tag that was the original VIN sequence, at some point that individual GA tag was replaced with a poor reproduction/fake "somewhat stock" appearing piece but the number was the same as always.
EDIT: it does appear the assigned VIN was a state issued sequence which does indicate the trail of the VIN should point to the owner who changed it. I'm corrected.
Last edited by ChattanoogaJSB; 07-31-2012 at 11:10 AM.
I remember an article in the NCRS magazine regarding a recovered car on the East Coast (I believe NY). The VIN plate was removed but the owner (not wanting a funky VIN plate issued from the DMV) approached G.M. about making a new plate and had it installed by a Chevrolet service tech. This idea seems like a possible "good solution".
It seems to me that if the car is not being represented as a model it was not (i.e. Big Block v. Small block, or F.I. v. base h.p.) then what is the issue? I also wonder why Ernst would be disqualified if he could show documentation the VIN was original (regardless of the originality of the plate)?
Let's break this down. Ernst bought the Corvette with a clear title. In that title is the car's original VIN with the state's sequence added GA7558 to record the number assigned to bird cage in lieu of VIN plate missing to ID the car. This was not a bill of sale, but a title transfer which clearly shows the car's real VIN given that the investigator were able to perform a title history search of the actual VIN #. No authority, nor is the buyer claiming the car was sold with a VIN # not that of the actual car's as reflected in title history. The buyer Ernst and authorities complain that seller probably put a reproduced VIN metal plate on the car with a forged VIN # of the actual car's real VIN # from original manufacturer GM.
Apparently, it's illegal to reproduce the VIN metal plate. Even if your Corvette is stolen and the GM VIN metal plate was removed and you recovered your car, the state would require a new state metal plate and # assigned. If you never sold your car, it would be illegal to reproduce the GM VIN metal plate with your original GM VIN #.
If you still disagree, follow the points:
Ellis is the seller
Ernst is the buyer
excerpts:
Quote:
Ernst bought the ’66 Corvette from Ellis after encountering the battered car at a Riverside collision shop in 2008.
Quote:
Ernst, a petrochemical designer, said he paid Ellis $49,700 for the car and spent an additional $75,000 over the next two years restoring it to its original luster.
Quote:
the judge came back and told Ernst he was disqualified because the VIN tag was counterfeit. He said that the number was right for that car but that the lettering font and the die marks on the tag were different from the ones that General Motors would have used in 1966.
[my thoughts: we have to wonder how the judge figured the VIN was correct, frame check?]
Quote:
Somewhere along the line, the car might have been stolen and recovered,” Ernst said. “It had this weird sticker on it, ‘GA7558.’?
[emphasis added by me... my thoughts: Ernst admitted there was a sticker which looked weird to him. Weird being a descriptor for an observation from the first person point of view]
Quote:
Ernst said the Georgia Department of Motor Vehicles then placed the GA7558 sticker on the car because the original VIN plate had been removed.
That ruined its value for high-end collectors, he said.
Ernst contends that the Georgia tag was on the car when Ellis bought it from a previous owner.
He alleges that Ellis removed it and made a new one, forging it using a number from the Corvette’s transmission. “Apparently, the transmission never left the car,” the collector said.
Quote:
The original VIN also would have been stamped on the car’s frame behind the left rear wheel, but Ernst said the car apparently was driven through many Western New York winters, and he thinks that the number would have long since rusted off.
[here, Ernst makes a theory that the frame VIN rusted off because of the NY winters, what a strange way to explain this given the $75,000 resto which had to include the frame work. I go back to the Corvette judges determination that the VIN was correct, but plate reproduced]
Last edited by ifitgoesfast; 07-31-2012 at 11:41 AM.
OK, over lunch, I read up on Georgia DMV and state law regarding titles of this sort.
In Georgia, a vehicle which was stolen and then recovered years later go through the process of being declared a total loss by the insurer to pay out the insured. The original title is surrendered as processed by the insurer. When the vehicle is recovered, years later, the person possessing the vehicle can apply for a salvage title (as long as original title was surrendered earlier). But you cannot sell the vehicle. In order to sell it, a licensed rebuilder has to restore the vehicle as per state guides. At this point, the person possessing the vehicle can apply for a rebuilt (or reconditioned) title.
Here's the kicker: you cannot remove any of this designation from the title. Whoever buys the vehicle will know.
Corvette Store
1966 Chevrolet Corvette: Restoration Fraud
Lawyers are just like ever one else cant believe them. Robert
