Best thing to free up piston rings?
11-16-2010, 11:08 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Best thing to free up piston rings?
My original 265 was rebuilt in 1965, driven only about 2K miles, then parked for 39 years. I've had it up and running again for the last few months and have put about 500 miles on it I think. I ran SeaFoam (the spray) down the carbs soon after getting it running. It smoked when revving and the SeaFoam helped this a ton. Really getting into the throttle in 2nd gear gave me smoke at higher RPMs but upon repeating, no smoke now. Like it's been clearing it's self out.
I am running Redline 10w30 with Auto-Rx (their lead chemist said it would work even better than dino oil with their product). The engine seems to be running better and stronger now. I pulled my 2nd set of spark plugs because I started to get a miss and crazy high or low idle after putting in some Techron cleaner. Some plugs look fine but 3 or 4 of them still have black on the piston side. I think it is from blow-by.
I'm thinking about trying the liquid SeaFoam in my oil next time. Anyone had luck with this breaking loose piston rings after decades in storage or is there something better? I'm just trying to get them to re-seat.
The old owner did tell me that when Fain's rebuilt it in '65, it was built to be a race engine and he said they built it "loose" because of this. I presume this just means forged pistons that have to warm up and expand on engine warm-up, right?
Thanks! Alex
I am running Redline 10w30 with Auto-Rx (their lead chemist said it would work even better than dino oil with their product). The engine seems to be running better and stronger now. I pulled my 2nd set of spark plugs because I started to get a miss and crazy high or low idle after putting in some Techron cleaner. Some plugs look fine but 3 or 4 of them still have black on the piston side. I think it is from blow-by.
I'm thinking about trying the liquid SeaFoam in my oil next time. Anyone had luck with this breaking loose piston rings after decades in storage or is there something better? I'm just trying to get them to re-seat.
The old owner did tell me that when Fain's rebuilt it in '65, it was built to be a race engine and he said they built it "loose" because of this. I presume this just means forged pistons that have to warm up and expand on engine warm-up, right?
Thanks! Alex
Last edited by 92GTA; 11-16-2010 at 11:18 PM.
11-17-2010, 02:55 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
You might find other opinions on this but my take is the rings in 1965 were most likely simple cast iron piston rings. The Cast Iron rings would wear into the cylinder and usually sealed up decently but they wear quite a bit as they are run and would be pretty much shot by 80,000 miles or so.
Usually engines are rebuilt with good consistency from one cylinder to the next so I expect you should have similar cylinder finish in all 8 holes. Piston rings usually break in pretty much at the same time and equally because they are running on similar cylinder finish.
Given the rings are the same and you did not have Carb issues that might have flooded the cylinders causing early ring failure the rings should be OK. Have you checked to make sure your Carb is not leaking fuel and causing an over rich problem.
Your Black Spark Plugs, are they wet and oily or dry and chalky black? One is oil induced and the other is over fueling.
I have seen shops replace engine Oil with either Tranny fluid or Diesel fuel and then run the engine for 15-20 minutes at fast idle, no load, no reving it up. Then they drain it and replace with engine oil. This was an effective fix for Honda engines that were exposed to long intervals with no oil change, they had light tension oil rings that gummed up and stuck in this type situation.
I have never seen this done on a low mileage valuable engine. Only High Mileage engines where it is done as a last resort to "TRY" and get a little more life out of an old engine.
Many of the additives like Bonami would scrub the cylinder walls attempting to seal up old rings but these are very abrasive to a cylinder and all other moving parts in the engine.
One of the still dangerous but effective ways to clean carbon off pistons is to mist water down the carb while the engine is at fast idle. It does blast all carbon off the piston top and might clean a top ring but would have no effect on the second or third ring.
If you are oiling it is probably the third ring that is stuck.
What I think I would do, if you know this was not a carburation issue is to send a camera wand down the spark plug hole with the piston at the bottom of its travel and look at your cylinder walls. You may find that moisture from the air over 39 years of sitting has left you with rust damaged cylinder walls. I hope not but a possibility. Most Auto Repair places and most Termite inspectors have these camera's in their tool cabinet today. It can save a lot of guessing.
Loose in 1965 would have meant loose fitting pistons, maybe .004 to .006 clearance piston to cylinder. Many builders in that period also left the rods and mains loose in performance engines .003 to .0035 was pretty common. Loose Forged pistons did take a while to heat up and quiet down on cold starts, usually well less than a minute, 10 - 20 seconds was pretty common. Do you have that issue?
Beat of luck with this and keep us posted on results.
Usually engines are rebuilt with good consistency from one cylinder to the next so I expect you should have similar cylinder finish in all 8 holes. Piston rings usually break in pretty much at the same time and equally because they are running on similar cylinder finish.
Given the rings are the same and you did not have Carb issues that might have flooded the cylinders causing early ring failure the rings should be OK. Have you checked to make sure your Carb is not leaking fuel and causing an over rich problem.
Your Black Spark Plugs, are they wet and oily or dry and chalky black? One is oil induced and the other is over fueling.
I have seen shops replace engine Oil with either Tranny fluid or Diesel fuel and then run the engine for 15-20 minutes at fast idle, no load, no reving it up. Then they drain it and replace with engine oil. This was an effective fix for Honda engines that were exposed to long intervals with no oil change, they had light tension oil rings that gummed up and stuck in this type situation.
I have never seen this done on a low mileage valuable engine. Only High Mileage engines where it is done as a last resort to "TRY" and get a little more life out of an old engine.
Many of the additives like Bonami would scrub the cylinder walls attempting to seal up old rings but these are very abrasive to a cylinder and all other moving parts in the engine.
One of the still dangerous but effective ways to clean carbon off pistons is to mist water down the carb while the engine is at fast idle. It does blast all carbon off the piston top and might clean a top ring but would have no effect on the second or third ring.
If you are oiling it is probably the third ring that is stuck.
What I think I would do, if you know this was not a carburation issue is to send a camera wand down the spark plug hole with the piston at the bottom of its travel and look at your cylinder walls. You may find that moisture from the air over 39 years of sitting has left you with rust damaged cylinder walls. I hope not but a possibility. Most Auto Repair places and most Termite inspectors have these camera's in their tool cabinet today. It can save a lot of guessing.
Loose in 1965 would have meant loose fitting pistons, maybe .004 to .006 clearance piston to cylinder. Many builders in that period also left the rods and mains loose in performance engines .003 to .0035 was pretty common. Loose Forged pistons did take a while to heat up and quiet down on cold starts, usually well less than a minute, 10 - 20 seconds was pretty common. Do you have that issue?
Beat of luck with this and keep us posted on results.
Last edited by Westlotorn; 11-17-2010 at 03:08 AM.
11-17-2010, 07:25 AM
#3
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
Received 1,843 Likes
on
1,398 Posts
Your engine may have chrome faced rings in it which means they might not have completely seated yet.
Your smoking symptoms sounds like maybe stuck or not seated rings. Have you given any thought to checking your valve seals to see if they are missing or deteriorated and passing oil?
Automatic transmission fluid is an excellent penetrate and has lots of detergent in it. Run one quart mixed in with the normal fill for a thousand miles and see if it helps.
There is also a chance you have just gotten a bum rebuild on the engine. "Loose" could be taken as the 265 was run until it was worn out and then simply re-ringed and put back together.
Your smoking symptoms sounds like maybe stuck or not seated rings. Have you given any thought to checking your valve seals to see if they are missing or deteriorated and passing oil?
Automatic transmission fluid is an excellent penetrate and has lots of detergent in it. Run one quart mixed in with the normal fill for a thousand miles and see if it helps.
There is also a chance you have just gotten a bum rebuild on the engine. "Loose" could be taken as the 265 was run until it was worn out and then simply re-ringed and put back together.
11-17-2010, 08:45 AM
#4
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Cape Cod, Mass.
Posts: 18,763
Received 4,553 Likes
on
2,160 Posts
2023 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2021 C8 of the Year Finalist Unmodified
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
2019 C1 of Year Winner (performance mods)
2017 Corvette of the Year Finalist
2016 C2 of Year
2015 C3 of Year Finalist
Marvel Mystery oil has worked for me in the past. Dump one quart of oil and add one quart of Marvel and run it for about 500 miles. Then change the oil.
11-17-2010, 10:06 AM
#5
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
Received 1,843 Likes
on
1,398 Posts
11-17-2010, 10:44 AM
#6
Race Director
The most knowledgeable automotive engineer I ever met back in the early '70s swore by that stuff.
11-17-2010, 11:09 AM
#7
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
Received 1,843 Likes
on
1,398 Posts
One time a ran a very unscientific test on five SBC pistons with frozen wrist pins. They were stuck tight enough that with the pistons clamped in a vice, you couldn't move the big end of the rod by pulling on it.
I stuck four of the pistons/rods in four coffee cans. One I filled with diesel fuel, one with ATF, one with Marvel Mystery Oil, one with motor oil and an additional rod/piston I kept wet with PB blaster which is a penetrating oil many say is great stuff.
In order of which chemical worked the fastest to free the stuck wrist pins, MMO, close second was the diesel, ATF and the motor oil and PB were last as they never did make the wrist pin really free.
Of course, I couldn't quantify how "stuck" each assembly in the sample was as none of them would move.
A buddy of mine freed up a '53 Ford flathead that had been idle for years. It was locked tight. Over the course of a month of soaking the cylinders with diesel, he finally got the crankshaft to move a little so he rocked it back and forth everyday for a few days until it would make a complete revolution. Then, he started the thing up and drove it for many thousands of miles with no problem before the car was finally wrecked.
I stuck four of the pistons/rods in four coffee cans. One I filled with diesel fuel, one with ATF, one with Marvel Mystery Oil, one with motor oil and an additional rod/piston I kept wet with PB blaster which is a penetrating oil many say is great stuff.
In order of which chemical worked the fastest to free the stuck wrist pins, MMO, close second was the diesel, ATF and the motor oil and PB were last as they never did make the wrist pin really free.
Of course, I couldn't quantify how "stuck" each assembly in the sample was as none of them would move.
A buddy of mine freed up a '53 Ford flathead that had been idle for years. It was locked tight. Over the course of a month of soaking the cylinders with diesel, he finally got the crankshaft to move a little so he rocked it back and forth everyday for a few days until it would make a complete revolution. Then, he started the thing up and drove it for many thousands of miles with no problem before the car was finally wrecked.
Last edited by MikeM; 11-17-2010 at 12:03 PM.
11-17-2010, 12:10 PM
#8
Drifting
Thread Starter
Wow, thanks for all the great replies!
It looks like I'm going try this Marvel Mystery Oil stuff on my next oil change!
you know, it very could be a carb problem, I know nothing about carbs. Bub Kunz has had my original 1x4 carb for what seems like 3 months now and won't even answer my emails with an ETA. I currently have a 57-61 2x4 carb setup on the car now and it's hard enough just to get the idle right lol.
Plugs in questions are light tan on top and black on the bottom. Some the black is slightly textured and some it's nasty and clumpy. Some are wet around the threads, others are totally dry.
The engine was bone stock and running great with only 22K original miles when rebuilt in 1965 as I mentioned and made into a race engine, that's when the 2x4 carbs were added. It was bored .030" over, new pistons, large cam, etc. I just never really knew what the guy meant by "loose" and he doesn't remember anymore than that since he didn't build it. The car was garage stored in the CA desert so I doubt there was rust in all the cylinders but anything is possible. I wasn't going to bother with the camera but if it keeps it up, I might pull it and rebuild it again but I don't want to have to do that.
It looks like I'm going try this Marvel Mystery Oil stuff on my next oil change!
you know, it very could be a carb problem, I know nothing about carbs. Bub Kunz has had my original 1x4 carb for what seems like 3 months now and won't even answer my emails with an ETA. I currently have a 57-61 2x4 carb setup on the car now and it's hard enough just to get the idle right lol.
Plugs in questions are light tan on top and black on the bottom. Some the black is slightly textured and some it's nasty and clumpy. Some are wet around the threads, others are totally dry.
The engine was bone stock and running great with only 22K original miles when rebuilt in 1965 as I mentioned and made into a race engine, that's when the 2x4 carbs were added. It was bored .030" over, new pistons, large cam, etc. I just never really knew what the guy meant by "loose" and he doesn't remember anymore than that since he didn't build it. The car was garage stored in the CA desert so I doubt there was rust in all the cylinders but anything is possible. I wasn't going to bother with the camera but if it keeps it up, I might pull it and rebuild it again but I don't want to have to do that.
Last edited by 92GTA; 11-17-2010 at 12:12 PM.
11-17-2010, 12:26 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
Good notes above, Thanks for the help MikeM, I failed to think of Chrome, those rings were pretty slow to seat but long lasting compared to the cast rings of the day.
We used to advise seating the rings by working the engine pulling a long moderate hill in a tall gear. Something that would make the engine work about 60% of max power for a bit of time. Obviously being careful not to overheat or detonate. The pressure of working under load helped seat the rings.
Marvel Mystery Oil is great stuff, in the cold area's of the country many would substitute one quart of Marvel for one quart of engine oil in the crankcase to help with Cold starts.
Marvel kept the oil from getting so thick that you could not turn the engine fast enough to get it started. I was told back then that Marvel was just a very high quality oil that was highly refined and improved the quality of the engine oil. I have never heard of a negative comment about that product. Back in 1989 I had a 6.2L Diesel Suburban that did not like -10 mornings. A trucker friend turned me on to adding Marvel and it really helped. I sold that truck running great with nearly 200,000 miles on it so it did not hurt it.
We used to advise seating the rings by working the engine pulling a long moderate hill in a tall gear. Something that would make the engine work about 60% of max power for a bit of time. Obviously being careful not to overheat or detonate. The pressure of working under load helped seat the rings.
Marvel Mystery Oil is great stuff, in the cold area's of the country many would substitute one quart of Marvel for one quart of engine oil in the crankcase to help with Cold starts.
Marvel kept the oil from getting so thick that you could not turn the engine fast enough to get it started. I was told back then that Marvel was just a very high quality oil that was highly refined and improved the quality of the engine oil. I have never heard of a negative comment about that product. Back in 1989 I had a 6.2L Diesel Suburban that did not like -10 mornings. A trucker friend turned me on to adding Marvel and it really helped. I sold that truck running great with nearly 200,000 miles on it so it did not hurt it.
11-17-2010, 12:36 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
"Plugs in questions are light tan on top and black on the bottom. Some the black is slightly textured and some it's nasty and clumpy. Some are wet around the threads, others are totally dry."
Nasty and Clumpy is burning lots of oil, tan to light/medium gray is good.
Nasty and Clumpy is burning lots of oil, tan to light/medium gray is good.
11-17-2010, 01:32 PM
#11
Drifting
Thread Starter
I'm going to add some to my next full tank of gas and to my crankcase next oil change. Then next oil change I'll go back to Auto-Rx, that should do it 
11-17-2010, 10:01 PM
#12
Melting Slicks
Rislone is the stuff to use. It has been around for ever. Developed in the days when gummyness was a regular occurance. I have used it will perfect results several times to correct this exact problem. Ad to crank case as directed. Run to operating temp. Let sit over night. Run to operating temp again the next day and change oil. Fixed sticky valves and lifters.
11-17-2010, 10:23 PM
#14
Drifting
Thread Starter
Rislone is the stuff to use. It has been around for ever. Developed in the days when gummyness was a regular occurance. I have used it will perfect results several times to correct this exact problem. Ad to crank case as directed. Run to operating temp. Let sit over night. Run to operating temp again the next day and change oil. Fixed sticky valves and lifters.
Thanks!
EDIT: They make like half a dozen different oil additives lol. Which one is for what I need?
Last edited by 92GTA; 11-17-2010 at 10:30 PM.
11-18-2010, 05:45 AM
#15
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
Received 1,843 Likes
on
1,398 Posts
There used to be a product on the market called "Casite". It was similar in performance to Rislone. I haven't seen any on the shelves lately.
Stick with something that has been mentioned here and try one of them first.
11-18-2010, 03:10 PM
#17
Drifting
Thread Starter
11-18-2010, 04:19 PM
#18
Pro
I'm with MikeM on this one, valve seals. They are cheap and easy to change, much easier than rings
11-18-2010, 08:37 PM
#19
Pro
frozen rings
I was told by old Ford mechanic years ago when I had a 73 Cougar ZR7. The 351 engine would always burn or blow out a quart of oil every 1k miles. Well he told to do one of two things: 1st try MMO, pour it down thru carb till it chokes down, and put a qt in the oil (do not overfill)crankcase. Drive it till it reaches opreating temp. Then shut it off, let set for a couple days. Change oil and run a qt of MMO in the gas. If this didn't do the trick, then try brake fluid thur the carb till it shuts, let set for a week, then get it cranked and drive it till it gets to operating temp.
Well the first method worked for me. I heard a loud pop, oil pressure when from 20 to 60#, it stopped smoking and it held good oil pressure from then on. Till I sold it.
The old Ford mechanic said the reason it smoked bad was because all the rings had lined up with the gaps all in a line. It was allowing the oil to flow down on top of the piston to burn. He said it (MMO or brake fluid) would free up the rings, allow then to move and it would evently quit burning oil.
just mytcw
max
Well the first method worked for me. I heard a loud pop, oil pressure when from 20 to 60#, it stopped smoking and it held good oil pressure from then on. Till I sold it.
The old Ford mechanic said the reason it smoked bad was because all the rings had lined up with the gaps all in a line. It was allowing the oil to flow down on top of the piston to burn. He said it (MMO or brake fluid) would free up the rings, allow then to move and it would evently quit burning oil.
just mytcw
max
12-03-2010, 10:30 AM
#20
Drifting
Thread Starter
UPDATE:
I added a qt of MMO to my oil and also ~6-8 ounces to a full tank of gas. For the last week I've been driving it and I'm down between a 1/4 and 1/2 tank of gas and I haven't noticed a difference so far.
I have noticed that with the engine idling at full temp, there is smoke coming out of the breather pretty heavily. I presume this is from blow by. From the exhaust note, sounds like it is on the passenger side of the engine too.
I am soon going to removing the 2x4 setup to reinstall my original 1x4 setup. What is the best way to get MMO into the combustion chamber to let it sit for a week to soak in around the pistons rings? I ask because I'm concerned that with the piston being on an angle, that the top portion of the piston facing the center of the engine won't get any MMO.
How do you guys suggest I do this? I'm also worried about hydrolocking the engine by doing it wrong.
I added a qt of MMO to my oil and also ~6-8 ounces to a full tank of gas. For the last week I've been driving it and I'm down between a 1/4 and 1/2 tank of gas and I haven't noticed a difference so far.
I have noticed that with the engine idling at full temp, there is smoke coming out of the breather pretty heavily. I presume this is from blow by. From the exhaust note, sounds like it is on the passenger side of the engine too.
I am soon going to removing the 2x4 setup to reinstall my original 1x4 setup. What is the best way to get MMO into the combustion chamber to let it sit for a week to soak in around the pistons rings? I ask because I'm concerned that with the piston being on an angle, that the top portion of the piston facing the center of the engine won't get any MMO.
How do you guys suggest I do this? I'm also worried about hydrolocking the engine by doing it wrong.