tyoneal

Hello:

My parts are due in this week, and I am trying to focus on the Chassis and Suspension part of the Grand Sport I'm Building.

My perspective:

I've seen the chassis and the frames of Mid America, and Duntov, and Mongoose Motorsports. They seem to be the "Big 3", that are sitting under the C2 Grand Sports. I know the frames are a ladder type similar to the frames of the original 1963 Grand Sport Race Cars.

Being close however is not necessarily being "Right" especially since the C4 Suspensions are part of all three designs.

All this said, I am seriously thinking of putting one of these under the Grand Sport: (There are several others but these seem to be the dominant ones)

http://www.sriiimotorsports.com/196382corvette.html
http://www.corvettecorrection.com/html/chasis.html
http://www.jamisoncustomcorvette.com...ar_chassis.asp
http://www.streetshopinc.com/c5andc6for53-82.html
http://www.streetshopinc.com/c4midyear.html
http://www.newmancarcreations.com/63-82-corvette/

My thoughts are:

To run the best made, best service oriented Chassis that incorporates the Highest level of Technology, so the Handling, and overall performance of the car can be maximized.

My questions are:

Would doing this hurt the long term resell value of the car?

Keep someone from being able to rung the car in a "Vintage/Exhibition Race", because it wasn't one of the 3 Frames that resembled the original frames closer?

Any reasons you personally would not choose to run the highest level of refinement that was available to you under one of these cars?

I do absolutely intend to run some track days, and whatever else I could get qualified to run in, and take some high performance driving lessons, as well as a fair amount of Street use.

I would appreciate any and all thoughts about this.

I know, "Build what you want", but these cars are pretty expensive to build and I would like to understand the issues I will be dealing with when, or if I decide to sell the car in the future.

I look forward to your insight.

Best Regards,

Ty O'Neal

kellsdad

Ty,
Your questions are similar to those raised by people who build Cobra replicas. Here is what I have observed in that arena. There are a wide variety of styles of replicas, but most fall into one of four categories. One group is cars that replicate the appearance of a specific original car in as much detail as possible. Another is show cars that are not entirely accurate, but have a very high degree of fit and finish, and look very good, but are seldom driven. A third group is cars built to perform as well as possible on the track using all the modern equipment that will fit within the basic shape of the original car. And lastly, there are cars built to give the Cobra driving experience at as modest a cost as possible. Most replicas will not resell for as much as the buillder has in them (IMHO), but appearance does matter a lot. A high end car, whether historically accurate or not, will usually sell for more as long as it doesn't have some glaringly inaccurate feature (e.g., Chevy motor in a Cobra).

Cobra replicas are typically not allowed to participate in vintage race events, so I assume the same would apply to a GS replica, regardless of the type of equipment in it.

Any time you build a car for two purposes (i.e., street and track use), you will have to compromise and have a car that is not ideal for either. Track use is hard on a car and will reveal any weak points in your design or components. It will also leave your paint looking less than car show ready. But it is a lot of fun and it is how I use my car. I've had my car repainted once and the engine rebuilt twice in the last eight years. I've also gone through several sets of racing tires. It's not a cheap hobby.

There are people who build replicas to resell and make money. From your comments, I don't believe that is what you are doing. I suggest you build the car to do what you want it to do and just accept the fact that it will be an expensive hobby until you sell it. You'll not likely break even when you sell, but if you built it well using high quality components you will have enjoyed it and should be able to find an interested buyer.

Mr. Wizzard

The only "accurate" chassis cars are the Duntov's custom-built GS's. They utilize a "vintage accepted" variation of the stock 63 suspension, which replicates that of the original cars (with some geometry changes to improve handling).
The Superformance chassis is supposed to be similar to the original, but it will have rack and pinion steering. It should be noted that the display car is a one-off, and there could be a number of changes incorporated before tooling is frozen to produce the production version....
All of the D&D, Mid America, and Mongoose cars use a round tube chassis that is similar to the original, but there are differences. The original chassis had a dip in both of the rear cross-members, where the D&D, Mid America, and Mongoose do not.
The three cars above all use C4 Corvette suspension componentry and brakes with coil-over shocks for improved handling over the cars using the original style suspension. At this point, I should note that the mods made by Duntov to the original geometry have done a lot to make the car a LOT better than the original cars, but I do not know how streetable they are.
Jim Lockwood has run his beautifully prepared Mid America car in vintage events successfully, so I believe it's up to the officials in the various vingate sanctioning bodies to determine whether they will allow a car with C4 suspension to run.
Looking at the chassis pictures in the attached links....I don't see a single one that comes close enough to the Grand Sports ladder-style chassis to be used in a replica. All of those chassis still utilize a perimeter-style frame, where the grand Sports used (2) 4" round tubes that are positioned well-inboard (in fact they run right under the driver and passenger seats....
Once again, Jim Lockwood is the expert on all this, so you might consider contacting him.

Larry

keystonefarm

One thing to consider is what body will you use for your car ? If you are starting with a real Corvette floorpan and birdcage then the Jamison, Street shop, Newman frames etc. will work fine as they are designed to replace a stock frame under a semi stock 63-67 Corvette. The 4'' round tube GS type frames are not engineered to replace stock frames. I imagine it can be done but body mounts and other clearance issues may come into play. The big question is what body will you be using to build your GS. How much modification do you want to do ? As far as vintage racing I would imagine it's up to the governing body to determine what they will allow. -------- Ken McCorry

jim lockwood

Ty,

In my opinion, it could.

I'd wager that, to most people who care, a Grand Sport isn't just fender flares, goofy hoods, and extra cooling slots. It's also the ladder frame that resembles the ones under the original cars (and the engine, and the cockpit, and.... on and on...).

Watch EPay auctions for Grand Sports built on stock frames and you'll quickly discover these cars struggle to bring any money at all. Extrapolate to a GS built on a frame intended to be a fit-form-and-function replacement for a stock frame.... is this really any different? I wouldn't think so.

Vintage racing was conceived as a way to keep old race cars doing what they were designed to do..... going fast and exciting the crowds. Over the years, its scope has expanded such that old cars which have no particular racing history are now also allowed to compete.

In the rare cases when you see a recently manufactured vehicle competing in vintage racing, I'd bet that the race organizers probably don't fully understand the vehicle they've admitted.

So what would almost certainly keep you from being able to vintage race your Grand Sport is the simple fact that it's not an old car.

Depends entirely on what you want from the car.

If you want to enter open track events, it's "run whacha brung". Whatever suspension and frame you want under your car is fine. Go wild.

If you want to compete against, say, replica Cobras, then YES, by all means, put the best stuff under your car you can and make us all proud!

But if you want to experience a Grand Sport like it really was (not like it could be made to be), modern suspension geometry probably should not be your first choice.

Open track events are excellent venues for driving and appreciating your high performance car.

Everyone should enter these. They teach the limits of your car and the limits of its driver.

My suggestion would be to build the car because you expect to enjoy it, not because you expect to make money when you sell it.

Having said all this, tell us something about the parts you've bought so far. Whose fiberglass have you purchased? What else have you acquired? What engine do you expect to use? Post pictures!

Jim

tyoneal

Hello:

Thanks to everyone who have posted. Here is what I am starting with, and what thoughts I have for its completion.

I bought this from a Gent who wanted one and didn't get around to finishing it. The car is a NOM 64 Corvette Coupe 4 speed with a Street friendly 350. Nothing is to radical. The rear has 4.1 rear gears.

Below the light assembly is a GS Grill part. The rear as well is GS. The 2 Front Fenders, The 2 Door skins, Handles/locks, Hood, Lights, dash are either stock or not GS. The GS parts are Mid-America in origin as are the replacement parts on order. The Chassis and Suspension is for the most part stock. Hopefully the pictures will reflect this.

My plans are to finish putting the GS Body together and then painting it. The interior has ordered the Fiberglass Dash, with the Dash currently being made that have all the Real looking GS Gauges with the 200 mph speedo etc. The center column will house the fuel gauge, Trans Temp., and Diff. Temp, Brake Bias, Start Button, Fuel pump, Extinguisher, etc. plus or minus. I will have to work with seats so they are TBA. Steering wheel will come off, Column will tilt. 4-5 point Harness. Thinking about adjustable sway bars on car. Colors Red/Black

Outside paint Red/Blk in same style as the Blue with white stripe originals with white "Hammer Head" front., Side Mount Exhaust Ceramic Coated, True Grand Sport Wheels (Hopefully 15 inch with good tires unless impossible to find the tires) if so then reluctantly I will use the 17 inch True GS Wheels with as high a profile side wall as I can find. Transmission either TKO 600, or T-56 R/T, or the Magnum T-56 as no console will be used.

The larger corvette rear (44) with the rear capable of handling 335 mm Rear tires. Front Tires 275 mm.

Engine- Would like to run a LS3 or LS7 with the Inglese Small Block Valve cover adaptors. (Allows you to run SBC Valve Covers on a LSx)

http://www.compperformancegroupstore...gineComponents

With a Kinsler Cross Ram EFI Manifolds. (Aluminum Ram Tubes Version)

4th One Down from the Top

http://www.kinsler.com/page--GM--17.html

I think properly done, this would make a neat engine with the right Vintage "Look", yet have the high tech and performance of modern Technology.

Would like to have the car wrapped in a vintage motif, where I can change it from time to time if desired.

Let see if this answers your questions to a fair degree as to where I am, to where I would like to be, other than the Chassis is not decided yet.

Thanks for all your help and advice.

Best regards,

Ty O'Neal

tyoneal

To All: (I forgot this)

I have purchased a convertible Tub and cage. As well as a nice interior and some of the body panels. The gauge cluster, dash, steering column original steering wheel and the rest of the interior parts coming out of the GS, and use them on the Convertible. The entire drive train, chassis and suspension brakes would be used in total for this car. I have a fresh pair of Knock Offs for this also. There would be wiring, convertible top etc. still would need to be acquired.

I do think that most of the needed parts to build this car I will have so it shouldn't take a ton of money to get a 'vert out of this as well for the weekends with my wife.

Your thoughts on this are also welcome.

Thanks for reading.

Ty

aworks

Unless you plan on changing the floors You have no choice but to go with a stock type frame. The GS style round tube frame runs under the floors. Thats why there is a large hump in the floors. And also why you need seats that are right on the floor. Especially in a coupe.

My coupe was a D&D car.I bought all the parts including the frame from Dean. I insisted the body come raw out of the molds cause I wanted the build the body myself. Over ten years later it still looks very good. D&D cars where known for body problems.

My roadster is a Mid America. Same thing, I bought all the parts and built the body myself from a bare 63 birdcage. I used all Jeff's body parts including the fire wall and floors. Both cars had the GS frames.

I have to go with Jim in saying that just throwing the body panels on a stock vette is no more valuable than any other custom. All depends on what you want to do with it.

jim lockwood

Ty,

Now that I see what your starting point is, I've got a couple of other comments:

If vintage racing is your ultimate goal, then you've already got a great platform that would be accepted by most organizations. Lop off the flares, magnaflux the suspension bits, install a roll cage, and send in your entry forms. (OK, yes, the actual process is much more involved.... but not as involved as converting your car into a Grand Sport would be.)

On the other hand, if having a Grand Sport is the goal, I think you would come out money and effort ahead to NOT try to convert that Sting Ray. In my not always humble opinion, you'd be better off to start with a Grand Sport foundation....such as and possibly including the D&D kit available in the "for sale" section.

Too, another forum member, "VSTOL" has been offering his compleated Mid America GS in the "for sale" section. That would be a good option to consider.

Jim

tyoneal

==================================
Regarding using a stock type frame because of the tube chassis that are available will protrude through the floor. That was the main reason I was looking at the chassis built by the other manufacturers that use the original mounting points.

When I bought the car I had in mind using the extra chassis/suspension to have the best of both worlds. Something on the weekend to take to the track, and something to use through the week to do errands in and go to Dinner in.

Perhaps this is a poor or unrealistic idea, but that is why I wanted to bounce off these ideas to you all.

Does that Larger picture have any decent reason to go this route?

I really couldn't decide what type of Vette I wanted, plus I didn't think there was a prayer I would ever have a GS being that most everything I saw at the time was 80k +

Ty

kellsdad

Ty,
As I said in an earlier thread, I don't think it is financially feasible to transform a spare frame into a complete car. I would drop that idea altogether. ... As for further modifying your already modified Corvette, I see you have three basic options. One is to take the car back to stock, but that is not what you want and likely not financially feasible for your car. Another is to radically modify your car into a genuine Grand Sport clone. That would be a major undertaking and likely cost more than the car would be worth at the end. Keep in mind that Superformance will begin providing the market with as many Grand Sports as it wants in the very near future. Third is to continue the modifications already started to make your car a customized Corvette with a Grand Sport theme. This would likely cost less than the other two options and yield a car likely to lose less money at resale, IMHO. The primary downside of option 3 is that you won't be able to say, "Yes, it's a Grand Sport" when stranger stops to ask you about it. But having had dozens of strangers ask me, "Is that a real Cobra," I can tell you that it is not a big deal for me. I can't tell you what to do, but if I owned your car, I'd consider it a pro-mod Corvette with a Grand Sport theme and I'd focus on maximizing its performance potential on the track. I would abandon the idea of building a genuine Grand Sport clone plus a second Corvette.

groovyjay

I think you got a nice starting point for a GS replica. You got the flares, the rear brake scoops. Only thing that is not true GS about the back half of your car is the gas cap, but it's still racing style. Front end needs the fixed headlights, mongoose can sell you the whole conversion kit. Another hood, open up the side gills. Even with the frame you have now, you can still have a very cool GS look-a-like, not too many people notice what frame you got when you go pass them at 155mph...

Mr. Wizzard

A GS hood would also help.

tyoneal

Hi:

Thanks again for the information.
I'm still not clear on taking the chassis and putting on a Corvette body on top of it.
Please bare with me a moment while I explain what I will have to make this car happen.

1. Very good Tub and Birdcage with Clear Title
2. A complete Chassis that includes

a) a complete c2 suspension
b) A complete Drive train that runs already and is installed
c) Brakes, Steering all installed

3) Rest of the Parts
d) Complete interior (Deluxe) and freshly recovered original seats etc.
e) Complete Dash and Gauge Pod (All complete and works)
f) Both doors Complete with glass installed and sanded ready for paint
g) Front End Lighting Complete with lighting buckets, and apprentice to operate head light doors
h) Complete Hood with hinges
i) Read deck lid
j) Front Wind Screen
h) New Carpet kit
i) Rear view and side view mirrors.
j) All 4 Bumpers with attachment kit
k) 4 Knock off wheels with tires
l) Side exhaust
m) Complete Steering column with original wheel
n) All doors hinge, handles and roll up levers

I am missing both front fenders, both rear fenders, rear panel and rear lights. Convertible Top, some odds and ends. Paint Job, Need side exhaust pipes covers. Windshield wipers, motor and wiring.

I promise I'm NOT trying to be hard headed, but I really have a lot of the car already in hand and it is in good shape. With this extra information would you still think it would be a lost cause to try and put together?

I promise I am just trying to learn about this.

The GS Coupe Body has ALL the parts necessary for completion inside and out paid for with clear title, and ready for installation, and Paint. I have a New LS3, New T-56, and whatever rear end would come with the chassis I eventually buy.

A quality shop will install the Body off one chassis onto another for $3500. Decent driver paint job with prep will run 10-12k.

Wheels and Tires I already have.

Would this to also be a lost effort as far as money is concerned?

Everything for both cars I owe nothing on at this point.

I thought this would be a good starting point for things. The Mid-America GS would be complete minus the chassis which I can acquire relatively easy from MAI.

Does this detailed explanation make things any more clear or possible, or am I still up a creek without a paddle?

Honestly thanks you for your thoughts and opinions as well as everyone else who has contributed to this thread.

Best Regards,

Ty

tyoneal

I love the Daytona Hoods. The one I have coming is for a SBC so the LS3 will fit nicely underneath. I was going to see if I could stretch things now or just save for a EFI side draft "Kinsler"? intake on top.

tyoneal

I almost forgot.

The GS Corvettes from Mongoose and Mid America both start at a bare minimum of $85,000 and go up to 120K+

I have just about 30% of the money in my car as a minimum GS cost from either of these two companies. The Convertible I have a bit over 7k in the whole thing.

Didn't know if this would help, but I thought I would through it in.

Thanks again,

Ty O'Neal

Vogie

A lot of work and money when VSTOL's Mid-America is on ebay at a bargain price. My timing is crappy or I'd be going after that one.

tyoneal

======================================== =
Vogie:

I hear you on that. I have been in touch with him to see what if anything might be able to be worked out.

Timing is everything and it's beautiful when it works out. If I were starting from scratch his car would be in my garage, it's a beaut.

Ty

kellsdad

Ty,
Your last posts changed my understanding of what you want to do. Let me rescind my previous suggestions and just say "I don't know." If you've worked out a very complete and realistic budget for what each completed car will cost, then your opinion is the one that counts. If you end up with two cars you enjoy and can afford, and you had a good time building them, then that's the important part. As long as the cost of the completed cars is not grossly out of line with market values, it seems financially viable. Good luck with your projects.

kellsdad

Ty,
One more thought. Early on I mentioned that my projects had cost much more than I anticipated. One of the reasons I discovered is that one change can ripple through a project causing many more unanticipated changes. For example, when I installed a ZZ430 style engine in my 63 coupe, I anticipated the need to convert my tach to work off an electronic signal. I did not realize the geometry of the ZZ430 heads changed the height of the intake and the shape of the exhaust ports. Consequently, I spent a lot more money on parts to fit the engine under the hood.

Another common cause of unanticipated costs is project creep. I was building a driver and not a show car. But it was hard to resist the urge to make every component look as good as possible "while the car was apart." It takes some discipline to simply clean up and reinstall an old part rather than replace it or send it off to some expert for detailed refinishing.

My point is that for you to make a solid decision on the financial feasibility of your project, you need to have researched every aspect of the project in as much detail as possible. If you don't, you may want to set aside quite a bit more money to deal with unanticipated issues.