Numbers matching C2
11-01-2010, 08:18 PM
#1
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Numbers matching C2
Are the most important "matching numbers" on a C2 a correct VIN number with matching engine pad (last six numbers of VIN)? Obviously matching colors as stated on VIN, interior and exterior.
11-01-2010, 08:21 PM
#2
Tech Contributor
Too big of a question.
If I were buying a matching numbers car I'd expect the VIN to match the engine, the engine to be correct, the transmission numbers and dates to be correct, same for the rear end. The distributor, carb, starter, alternator, radiator, fuel pump, intake, heads, exhaust manifolds, window glass all to have the right numbers and dates (when applicable). The interior/exterior colors should match the Trim tag and the Trim tag should be authentic, not fake.
And so on.
If I were buying a matching numbers car I'd expect the VIN to match the engine, the engine to be correct, the transmission numbers and dates to be correct, same for the rear end. The distributor, carb, starter, alternator, radiator, fuel pump, intake, heads, exhaust manifolds, window glass all to have the right numbers and dates (when applicable). The interior/exterior colors should match the Trim tag and the Trim tag should be authentic, not fake.
And so on.
11-01-2010, 08:31 PM
#3
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Wombette is correct with regard to our inability to sufficiently describe how to check for matching numbers - partly because there are several different definitions, and partly because Fraud is a problem in this hobby and even if a number matches there's a lot involved in determining if it's authentic or a fake.
To give you some perspective on the scope of the full-blown numbers-matching component that the higher-end organizations use:
Trim Tag - The paint and interior combo on the tag match the colors the car is presented in. The body number and body build date on the Trim Tag align with the VIN of the car (which can be used to predict the final assembly date of the car). For example, if the Trim Tag indicates a red car with red interior, and that is what you have, that's only part of the battle. Does the build date of the body predate the build date of the car by a little? By a lot? If by a lot (or the body date proceeds the car build date) then the trim tag may be from a wrecked red/red car and not this one.
Engine Block - The engine block should be the right part number, manufactured at the right engine plant. The car serial number should be stamped on the front of the engine. The casting date of the engine block should precede the assembly date of the car by a few days to few weeks (typically). The assembly date of the engine, stamped on the front of the engine, should succeed or equal the engine casting date and precede the car's assembly date. The Usage code stamped into the engine (indicates horsepower, transmission, etc) should align with how the car is configured.
Transmission - The numbers on the transmission should be correct for the type of tranny in your car, and I believe the car VIN is also stamped on the transmission but I can't remember.
Heads - Heads should be correct for the car
Carburetor - Correct number and date code
Alternator - Correct number and date code
Distributor - Ditto
Voltage Regulator, Horn Relay - Ditto
Water Pump - Correct number (date codes I think are hidden or missing)
Radiator - Correct number and date code
Starter - Correct number and date code
Rear Axle - Correct number and date code, correct axle ratio for the engine option
Window Glass - Correct date code
A/C Compressor (If present) - Correct number and date code
Shocks - Correct number and date code
And so on. Some people say "Matching Numbers" meaning the VIN of the car matches the VIN of the engine block.
Some mean that every component on the car has the correct numbers and dates for this car as it would have rolled off the assembly line.
Some mean that every numbered component is ORIGINAL to the car, not just a matching replacement.
To make things muddier, there's a large industry recreating an engine to look original (called a restamp). Trim Tags and even VIN Tags are reproduced although experts can tell them from originals. Carburetors can look correct and have the right numbers but may prove to be a 1980s service replacement carb that someone restamped to use the 1960s numbers and dates - but an expert can still tell an original carb apart from a restamped service replacement.
And so on.
So, while I understand your question and wish I could help, as you can see this is a huge thing, and the correctness (or not) of various numbers can affect market price depending on who your target buyer is.
I hope your dad recovers soon, and you find yourself talking to him in person about this
Jeff
62Jeff
Wombette is correct with regard to our inability to sufficiently describe how to check for matching numbers - partly because there are several different definitions, and partly because Fraud is a problem in this hobby and even if a number matches there's a lot involved in determining if it's authentic or a fake.
To give you some perspective on the scope of the full-blown numbers-matching component that the higher-end organizations use:
Trim Tag - The paint and interior combo on the tag match the colors the car is presented in. The body number and body build date on the Trim Tag align with the VIN of the car (which can be used to predict the final assembly date of the car). For example, if the Trim Tag indicates a red car with red interior, and that is what you have, that's only part of the battle. Does the build date of the body predate the build date of the car by a little? By a lot? If by a lot (or the body date proceeds the car build date) then the trim tag may be from a wrecked red/red car and not this one.
Engine Block - The engine block should be the right part number, manufactured at the right engine plant. The car serial number should be stamped on the front of the engine. The casting date of the engine block should precede the assembly date of the car by a few days to few weeks (typically). The assembly date of the engine, stamped on the front of the engine, should succeed or equal the engine casting date and precede the car's assembly date. The Usage code stamped into the engine (indicates horsepower, transmission, etc) should align with how the car is configured.
Transmission - The numbers on the transmission should be correct for the type of tranny in your car, and I believe the car VIN is also stamped on the transmission but I can't remember.
Heads - Heads should be correct for the car
Carburetor - Correct number and date code
Alternator - Correct number and date code
Distributor - Ditto
Voltage Regulator, Horn Relay - Ditto
Water Pump - Correct number (date codes I think are hidden or missing)
Radiator - Correct number and date code
Starter - Correct number and date code
Rear Axle - Correct number and date code, correct axle ratio for the engine option
Window Glass - Correct date code
A/C Compressor (If present) - Correct number and date code
Shocks - Correct number and date code
And so on. Some people say "Matching Numbers" meaning the VIN of the car matches the VIN of the engine block.
Some mean that every component on the car has the correct numbers and dates for this car as it would have rolled off the assembly line.
Some mean that every numbered component is ORIGINAL to the car, not just a matching replacement.
To make things muddier, there's a large industry recreating an engine to look original (called a restamp). Trim Tags and even VIN Tags are reproduced although experts can tell them from originals. Carburetors can look correct and have the right numbers but may prove to be a 1980s service replacement carb that someone restamped to use the 1960s numbers and dates - but an expert can still tell an original carb apart from a restamped service replacement.
And so on.
So, while I understand your question and wish I could help, as you can see this is a huge thing, and the correctness (or not) of various numbers can affect market price depending on who your target buyer is.
I hope your dad recovers soon, and you find yourself talking to him in person about this
Jeff
62Jeff
11-01-2010, 08:36 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
Too big of a question.
If I were buying a matching numbers car I'd expect the VIN to match the engine, the engine to be correct, the transmission numbers and dates to be correct, same for the rear end. The distributor, carb, starter, alternator, radiator, fuel pump, intake, heads, exhaust manifolds, window glass all to have the right numbers and dates (when applicable). The interior/exterior colors should match the Trim tag and the Trim tag should be authentic, not fake.
And so on.
If I were buying a matching numbers car I'd expect the VIN to match the engine, the engine to be correct, the transmission numbers and dates to be correct, same for the rear end. The distributor, carb, starter, alternator, radiator, fuel pump, intake, heads, exhaust manifolds, window glass all to have the right numbers and dates (when applicable). The interior/exterior colors should match the Trim tag and the Trim tag should be authentic, not fake.
And so on.
That's a perfect description of a numbers matching car. Jim
11-02-2010, 10:01 PM
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Unfortunately for most SELLERS today "numbers matching" means the VIN part of the engine pad stamp matches the VIN of the car, after that all bets are off... I agree with the rest of you but have seen customers come in with "matching numbers" cars that were re-stamps, etc... they matched alright... feel bad when that happens, buyers beware.
