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Old 08-25-2010, 10:06 PM   #141
project63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKguitar View Post
I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of NCRS. With that said, I have two comments here:

1. If someone deserved a penalty, and that penalty was waived or reduced due to the fact that someone was a "35 year member", THAT would make me think it was nothing more than an "old boy's club" and strongly discourage me from becoming a new member.

2. As far as people being "sticklers", if people who are "sticklers" for rules and minutia annoy you, and/or you are not at least a little bit of a "stickler" yourself, I would suggest that restoring a car for judging as a hobby is likely not a good match for your personality.
I like the way you think... All this hullabaloo is a symptom of where we are as a country. The rule and the consequence have been in place for many many years.
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:24 PM   #142
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I like the way you think... All this hullabaloo is a symptom of where we are as a country. The rule and the consequence have been in place for many many years.
Just curious??? If it were you, would you be 100% ok with being banned from the NCRS tech board along with your suspension?

If it were me, I would probably be like Roy and be ok with the suspension from judging but....I would feel overly disciplined if I was made to feel like an outcast by a group of folks that I had been associated with (and helped to move the organiztion forward) for many years.
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:50 PM   #143
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Roy has had his supporters and critics over the years, but he has always provided a wealth of information here and in the NCRS. His departure diminishes any group. NCRS is a good source of information, but they are purists. Overspray is more important to them than oversteer (or understeer). Some drive, fewer drive them hard. It's a different group, and as any group, it has positives and negatives. Members should take a look at the discussion on this topic there now. As I said, different. I enjoy both forums. Hope Roy continues to contribute when and as he can.
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:59 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by 65tripleblack View Post
Here's an exact quote from the Sixth Edition of the JRM: ".....................owners prematurely removing cars from the judging field will nullify any award received and result in a 13 month suspension of the owner from any NCRS judging process".

Roy's complaint is NOT about the suspension, but about being banned from the Technical Discussion Board.

Is participation in the Discussion Board a part of the "judging process". OKAY, some nit picker, lawyer type will say that it is, if you are responding to a question. But how about lurking. Just being able to log on and watch. Roy cannot do this as his logon is locked out. Same as any non-dues paying non-members.

Was the wording changed or updated in the latest edition? Somebody please explain. I agree with the "rules are rules" mentality, but in Roy's case, it seems that they went beyond "throwing the book at him".
Finally, someone posted the real question. Is participation in the Discussion Board a part of the judging process and also subject to being banned from?

In my opinion, for what it's worth, I can't see how anyone can justify the additional sanction of banning Roy from the NCRS forum. It is above and beyond the penalty for the infraction.
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:32 PM   #145
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Just curious??? If it were you, would you be 100% ok with being banned from the NCRS tech board along with your suspension?

If it were me, I would probably be like Roy and be ok with the suspension from judging but....I would feel overly disciplined if I was made to feel like an outcast by a group of folks that I had been associated with (and helped to move the organiztion forward) for many years.
Let just suppose I thumbed my nose at a known rule (and consequence) time after time. On at least the third time, I get busted. I have no one to blame but myself and lo and behold I find out the along with the loss of membership, comes the loss of "posting on a discussion board". Oh dear...maybe I would get a life

For cryin out loud folks, are we that addicted to the internet? With no disrepect, most of Roy's posts on the NCRS TDB have to do with dealer added accessories, for which I might add cause a point loss in judging, not visa versa. Granted, Roy throws an occasional nugget in the hat regarding passenger car parts that also are correct for Corvettes of the same vintage. Now that is good stuff for sure, but the price for those nuggets is an ample dose of the "woe is me" demeaneor in most of his other contributions because the NCRS doesn't give "extra credit" for the dealer added stuff......... Hello??

What was the point of the original post on this topic anyway? Truth be known, it just more of same in my opinion. Damning praise of the NCRS is no praise at all. I've said more than I originally intended, but frankly I've got a belly full of this and needed to get it off my chest..

tc

Last edited by project63; 08-25-2010 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:35 PM   #146
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This post may end up being a record breaker.
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:44 PM   #147
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In am becoming convinced that there is a gene somewhere in human DNA
that is either turned on or off.

If it is off, a person will take an opportunity and do what he wants.

If it is on, a person will take an opportunity and make everyone else do what he wants.

Periodically this gene is duplicated with potentially extreme results.

The clash between these two "personality types" is the stuff of history.

If for no other reason, don't expect world peace soon . . .

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Old 08-26-2010, 03:48 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by rgs View Post
Finally, someone posted the real question. Is participation in the Discussion Board a part of the judging process and also subject to being banned from?

In my opinion, for what it's worth, I can't see how anyone can justify the additional sanction of banning Roy from the NCRS forum. It is above and beyond the penalty for the infraction.
Perhaps they should refrain from sending Roy's Driveline and Restorer too! That will show him. The NCRS is not passing the sniff test on their own rules.
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:18 AM   #149
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I am quite frankly puzzled by the depth and tone of this thread.

On one side we have those people who hate NCRS, and have jumped into this with both feet.

On the other side we have the people who hate people who hate NCRS, and have also jumped into this with both feet.

The question here is simple: does the violation that Roy committed include being banned from the TBD. NCRS obviously thinks so, although I am hard pressed to reach the same conclusion, based on the penatly statement in the JRM.

The answer, however, is not so simple, because we now have also have the Rule of Unintended Consequences.

Roy deserves to be punished as stated in the JRM, and he admits that.

The unintended consequence of his being banned from the TBD is that other members lose access to his base of knowledge. In addition, I also understand that he will not be allowed to continue his work on the 53-55 judging manual revisions.

As to the point that his posts are mostly about accessories anyway, and are not worth much, the phrase that covers that is "slippery slope". Would the same statement be made if we were talking about one of the half dozen or so people that we all recognize as Subject Matter Experts?

It doesn't matter who the person is. If he or she answers one question for one other member, they have contributed enough to be there.

As for the comments to "take this to your regional rep", I have personally been down that road a number of times, and always reach a dead end. I do not fault my regional rep; I truly believe he is working the issues I bring to him as hard as he can, and I commend him for that.

I am confident of one thing. NCRS will solve this problem soon. I predict that the next version of the JRM will say something like "violations of the rule will result in suspension from all NCRS sponsored activity for a period of 13 months."
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:34 AM   #150
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Anybody been across the street-----------------er, the internet, to visit the "other" Corvette site?
As I mentioned waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay earlier, on this site, people will discuss and hash out differences of opinions and/or conflicts. Over there they won't do that. Anytime any personal conflict or controversial issue surfaces, they just ignore it and won't discuss the issue.
WELL NOT THIS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!! And personally, I think it is way past time that they began to debate over a conflict issue.
Oh ya, and of course, they are frequently making comments about the N*&$ bashing that is going on here at CF (remember, I've been a N*&$ member for over 30yrs), but yet if you read through their replies, you will discover there are some internal criticisms. For years, I've pointed out some attitude issues that need to be addressed, and for years, they were simply "swept under the carpet" and business remained as usual. I must admit that over the past few years, some things have made noticeable improvements.
They are STILL somewhat aloof toward people like me who have a car that doesn't meet flight standards or survivor standards.

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Last edited by DZAUTO; 08-26-2010 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:40 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emccomas View Post
The question here is simple: does the violation that Roy committed include being banned from the TBD. NCRS obviously thinks so, although I am hard pressed to reach the same conclusion, based on the penatly statement in the JRM.
This was essentially the point I was trying to make, is the penalty "consistently applied"? Apparently someone earlier in the year was suspended for the same infraction, so I ask, was he banned for 15 months? Was his use of the TDB suspended as well? If we look back over the last 3 years, was everyone who violated the rule given the same punishment? If the answer is yes to all of the above, then as much as I understand Roy's frustration, I think the penalty is appropriate in this instance. Again, this is an outsider's view.
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:48 AM   #152
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You have been a naughty boy, go to your room! Jeesh...
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Old 08-26-2010, 10:46 AM   #153
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I think your comment of "total disregard for the safety of spectators" is over the top and shows some of the aforementioned NCRS mentality... the NCRS made a mountain out of an ant hill here.. I mean did he wind the car up to 5k and drop the clutch to get out like a bat out of hell?? Did he do a 4 wheel drift pass some spectators?? Come on man get a little more friggin' realistic here.. I'll even take it one step further, did anyone from the NCRS knowing that he was/had to leave make ANY attempt to accomodate him to ensure the saftey of said spectators? I'm willing to bet not.. I think it would be wise to assist those that take their time and money to attend the shows to assist if they have to leave earlier than normal realizing they might have a long drive home.. I mean really without those coming from all over the damn place we could try to accomodate them... It's all about ME(NCRS).. So, like a good man he admited he was wrong but the punishment (banned from the board also) does not in NO way fit the crime here...

And before anyone ask's, I'm a member (2862) and I do judge as much as family commitments (which always come first) allow.. I've enjoyed some really great friendships from the NCRS (and here) but I'll tell you that the "turds" outnumber them significantly.. We'll keep the light on for ya Roy..

/joe
I agree. Most people at the car shows knows cars are coming and going constantly. Walk around bloomington or Carlisle. How many cars are leaving or coming into the field late? Not to mention going to a local cruise nights where people are getting off work and coming to the cruise shows. People who go to these shows should watch out for the traffic.

Also, Roy, I get alot of technical advice from you so keep posting! It really helps my project! I get more helpful information from here than any other place.

Last edited by jimh_1962; 08-26-2010 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 08-26-2010, 10:51 AM   #154
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Roy you knew the rules before you entered. If you had to leave early you should not have entered. You broke a rule now do the time and stop moaning like a little kid. Did you think because it was you that you deserve special treatment and it should be ok for you to leave early. Most people would like to leave early and get on the road but we abide by the rules.
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Old 08-26-2010, 11:01 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKguitar View Post
This was essentially the point I was trying to make, is the penalty "consistently applied"? Apparently someone earlier in the year was suspended for the same infraction, so I ask, was he banned for 15 months? Was his use of the TDB suspended as well? If we look back over the last 3 years, was everyone who violated the rule given the same punishment? If the answer is yes to all of the above, then as much as I understand Roy's frustration, I think the penalty is appropriate in this instance. Again, this is an outsider's view.


The other much-discussed case of a 13 month suspension was indeed due to leaving the judging field while judging was still active. Paul Borowski referred to this way above.

The owner in this case chose to 'leave early' as judging had been terminated on the car due to the (correction) failure on the car during a PV.

Last edited by Mike Ward; 08-26-2010 at 02:29 PM. Reason: corrected resson for departure.
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Old 08-26-2010, 11:26 AM   #156
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The other much-discussed case of a 13 month suspension was indeed due to leaving the judging field while judging was still active. Paul Borowski referred to this way above.

The owner in this case chose to 'leave early' as judging had been terminated prematurely on the car due to the presence of a non-OEM trim tag. Judging rules now state that cars with such tags will be disqualified and cannot receive any sort of NCRS award. This applies to C2 only, for now.

Lets' see what the witch hunters do with this one.........
Once and for all, was the above listed owner banned from the NCRS TDB or only judging activities?
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Old 08-26-2010, 11:47 AM   #157
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First, Roy sorry you were subjected to this but as many have stated before rules are rules and IMO many in NCRS leadership roles have long since lost the idea of preservation and enjoyment of the cars we all cherish

I left the judging - show side of NCRS many years ago for simular reasons

I went to the dark side (MOPARS) and within a few years the overspray valve cap judges moved the MoPars in the same direction

I will continue to pay my dues each year as the "Restorer" and "Driveline" cannot be beat. I may do a road tour from time to time as they have always been well planned and FUN

Dropped out of the Texas Chapter years ago after publishing the local chapter News Letter for several years - seems the only real Corvettes in Texas at the time had to be red or black 427/435's restored by that little ole shoppe in Houston (still the best in the business) Shadetree 396's that were driven to the shows just didn't pass the grade back in the day

Maybe like myself it is time to retire from the show circuit and just surf the forums as someone posted before some of us just don't fit in lol cool:

Blue
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Old 08-26-2010, 12:03 PM   #158
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Why doesn t anybody post the name of the man who handed out the punishment-he created this whole mess,why not expose him? Again-this has nothing to do with the NCRS,just some knucklehead over zealous NCRS exec who should be banned from the organization for making such an unreasonable judgement and destroying the name of the organization.
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Old 08-26-2010, 12:14 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by 1966 L72 View Post
Once and for all, was the above listed owner banned from the NCRS TDB or only judging activities?
From what I know, the 13 month suspension is uniform. IOW it's not a knee-jerk kangaroo court reaction.
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Old 08-26-2010, 12:32 PM   #160
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I still don't understand the "can't leave early rule". To say it's in the name of "safety" and to protect spectators and judges is pure B.S. Go to any of the GoodGuy's event and observe. You'll see a collection of up to 3000 cars and at any time during the day, more than 100 cars are moving through a crowded venue. Towards the end of the day, several hundred cars are leaving or just cruisin' around. These events are held many times a year nationwide and have been for many years. Has anyone ever been hurt while judging or looking at cars? NO.
I wonder what's the real reason for that chicken **** rule.

Jim

P.S. For those that can't view the NCRS forum, there's a lot of members there that agree that this banishment thing is wrong.

Last edited by 1snake; 08-26-2010 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 08-26-2010, 12:32 PM
 
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