GM 425 HP Crate Engine "Heart Transplant"
07-18-2010, 03:41 PM
#21
Race Director
I believe one is available for the externally balanced motors. Not the L88/ZL1 flywheel I use, but the same except for the balance.
Doug
07-18-2010, 04:02 PM
#22
Melting Slicks
First,,the crate 454's aren't bad. They have a lot of good parts in them. It's an old school motor with a lot less compression and hyd a roller cam. But it is a weird combo....because rectangular port heads on a 454 aren't going to be anywhere near their best RPM range when the hyd roller cam has already begun to wheez. Decent oval ports would walk all over it within similar RPM ranges.
JIM
JIM
100%....I'm too am very puzzled about the rect. port heads on this combo?
07-18-2010, 04:05 PM
#23
Melting Slicks
My gut would say 300-325 RWHP at best depending on exhaust/trans you used. The ZZ502's seem to be in the high 300's at best.
Do a search on the 496" oval port motor that Ajrothm has in the C-3 section. Made 650'ish hp on two different engine dyno's and then mid 400's on a Dynojet with a T-400, smaller headers, full exhaust, all acessories etc. Runs high 10's on pump gas with A/C, PS, PB, 3.08 gears, tight converter etc and drives like a baby. Check the videos he's posted..pretty neat setup for the $$$.
I wouldn't be expecting to jump on anyone with a stock LS-1 transplanted into an old Vette with one of these 425HP motors.
JIM
Do a search on the 496" oval port motor that Ajrothm has in the C-3 section. Made 650'ish hp on two different engine dyno's and then mid 400's on a Dynojet with a T-400, smaller headers, full exhaust, all acessories etc. Runs high 10's on pump gas with A/C, PS, PB, 3.08 gears, tight converter etc and drives like a baby. Check the videos he's posted..pretty neat setup for the $$$.
I wouldn't be expecting to jump on anyone with a stock LS-1 transplanted into an old Vette with one of these 425HP motors.
JIM
07-18-2010, 04:26 PM
#24
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It would be a fun race....but I've seen too many LS's deep off into the 12's with nothing to speak of. This thing is going to have a heck of a time getting there with the added weight of a big block with iron heads, no RPM etc.
And I LOVE big blocks.....just that THIS is NOT the way to have one and not get embarrassed.
I should say,,,,that YES,,,you can run 12's with this motor...13's for sure....but there are better ways to do it and go faster.
JIM
And I LOVE big blocks.....just that THIS is NOT the way to have one and not get embarrassed.
I should say,,,,that YES,,,you can run 12's with this motor...13's for sure....but there are better ways to do it and go faster.
JIM
07-18-2010, 07:36 PM
#25
Racer
Karl,
Well you might be right as "just fine" means giving up lots of HP just to stop the pinging and engine destruction. Kind of like tires, the old bias plys of 45 years ago are no comparison to todays radials. Safer, much better ride, steering, tracking, and cornering.
But it boils down to what you will tolerate to have a "factory original" Corvette. To me a nice car should be nice to drive and not give up anything. My car was made w 425 HP by GM engineers; they have an answer to the low octane gas we have 45 years later...hence the heart transplant.
Anyway, everyone has their own take and no one wants to change so to each his own; I have no problem w what people want to do with their car, their money, and their time.
I appreciate all the good help in scoping out what the engine options are for my car. Really appreciate the help. Lots of experience here; I listen to all inputs then make a decision as best I can.
Well you might be right as "just fine" means giving up lots of HP just to stop the pinging and engine destruction. Kind of like tires, the old bias plys of 45 years ago are no comparison to todays radials. Safer, much better ride, steering, tracking, and cornering.
But it boils down to what you will tolerate to have a "factory original" Corvette. To me a nice car should be nice to drive and not give up anything. My car was made w 425 HP by GM engineers; they have an answer to the low octane gas we have 45 years later...hence the heart transplant.
Anyway, everyone has their own take and no one wants to change so to each his own; I have no problem w what people want to do with their car, their money, and their time.
I appreciate all the good help in scoping out what the engine options are for my car. Really appreciate the help. Lots of experience here; I listen to all inputs then make a decision as best I can.
Larry, take it all in stride and do what your car will allow you to do.. If you want a reliable "street" stump puller that will start and run everyday for the next 20+ years, don't hesitate to get the HO454.. You'll have a blast with it.. I've had one in my 71 since 1992.. Guess what? Not a single issue ever... Oil changes and spark plugs..
Unless you race, don't get caught up in all the "what will beat what" crap... If there's no money on it, who cares...
HO454 all the way...
07-19-2010, 02:27 PM
#26
Team Owner
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07-20-2010, 10:20 AM
#27
Le Mans Master
My gut would say 300-325 RWHP at best depending on exhaust/trans you used. The ZZ502's seem to be in the high 300's at best.
Do a search on the 496" oval port motor that Ajrothm has in the C-3 section. Made 650'ish hp on two different engine dyno's and then mid 400's on a Dynojet with a T-400, smaller headers, full exhaust, all acessories etc. Runs high 10's on pump gas with A/C, PS, PB, 3.08 gears, tight converter etc and drives like a baby. Check the videos he's posted..pretty neat setup for the $$$.
I wouldn't be expecting to jump on anyone with a stock LS-1 transplanted into an old Vette with one of these 425HP motors.
JIM
Do a search on the 496" oval port motor that Ajrothm has in the C-3 section. Made 650'ish hp on two different engine dyno's and then mid 400's on a Dynojet with a T-400, smaller headers, full exhaust, all acessories etc. Runs high 10's on pump gas with A/C, PS, PB, 3.08 gears, tight converter etc and drives like a baby. Check the videos he's posted..pretty neat setup for the $$$.
I wouldn't be expecting to jump on anyone with a stock LS-1 transplanted into an old Vette with one of these 425HP motors.
JIM
My brother has been working with a engine builder 427hotrod recommended. His motor is done and may be on the way to my house. It's a 468 and came out at 505hp and 555tq I believe for about 5k We will be able to give you real world results but with a dynoed motor you know what your getting.
Gordon.
07-20-2010, 11:13 AM
#28
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Have you considered just making a few upgrades to your existing 396? I would think upgrading the top end would get you at least as much performance as that crate motor for less cost and hassle.
And you'd keep that 396 alive, which is a good thing also.
Just IMHO.
DT
And you'd keep that 396 alive, which is a good thing also.
Just IMHO.
DT
07-20-2010, 11:48 AM
#29
Le Mans Master
im not sure why this turned into a performance HOT ROD thread...sure there are ways to out build a crate and i guess it all depends on the usage...the ho 454 is an 8-3/4 compression mill...give it a break...i dont think the op said anything about a race mill anyway and i would surely rather have a brand new 454 from intake to pan with a warranty than re build a 396 used motor....btw..i really dont have a problem with most of the LS equipped vettes on the street, a few have tried me with surprising results, before this gets out of hand, no i have not been up against a later 6 or 7 or a z-06...with 500#'s of torque, the bfg 235-15's dont have a chance anyway and people always comment on how smooth and powerful, well mannered my bb is...to each his own.....jmo
07-20-2010, 12:11 PM
#30
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im not sure why this turned into a performance HOT ROD thread...sure there are ways to out build a crate and i guess it all depends on the usage...the ho 454 is an 8-3/4 compression mill...give it a break...i dont think the op said anything about a race mill anyway and i would surely rather have a brand new 454 from intake to pan with a warranty than re build a 396 used motor....btw..i really dont have a problem with most of the LS equipped vettes on the street, a few have tried me with surprising results, before this gets out of hand, no i have not been up against a later 6 or 7 or a z-06...with 500#'s of torque, the bfg 235-15's dont have a chance anyway and people always comment on how smooth and powerful, well mannered my bb is...to each his own.....jmo
I'm simply talking about preserving the exisiting short block and modernizing the top end, which will produce a motor that won't give up much of anything to that crate motor and will preserve at least some of the original character of the car.
Most of the benefits of that new crate motor can be achieved just by installing modern aluminum heads.
Sometimes it seems everyone is in way too much of a hurry to pitch out the old plant and drop a crate motor in. Especially when it comes to big blocks.
Again, just IMHO
DT
07-20-2010, 12:22 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
Sorry, but my post has nothing to do with "HOT ROD"ing or building a "race mill".
I'm simply talking about preserving the exisiting short block and modernizing the top end, which will produce a motor that won't give up much of anything to that crate motor and will preserve at least some of the original character of the car.
Most of the benefits of that new crate motor can be achieved just by installing modern aluminum heads.
Sometimes it seems everyone is in way too much of a hurry to pitch out the old plant and drop a crate motor in. Especially when it comes to big blocks.
Again, just IMHO
DT
I'm simply talking about preserving the exisiting short block and modernizing the top end, which will produce a motor that won't give up much of anything to that crate motor and will preserve at least some of the original character of the car.
Most of the benefits of that new crate motor can be achieved just by installing modern aluminum heads.
Sometimes it seems everyone is in way too much of a hurry to pitch out the old plant and drop a crate motor in. Especially when it comes to big blocks.
Again, just IMHO
DT
07-20-2010, 12:23 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Yes, that is one option, let's call it Option A. The existing block is casting 3969854 with a stamp T041CLB & 1(or7)1C163469 with heads casting 3964290. The car is a 1965 C2 but it has "427" fender badges. So I have no idea if this engine is bored to 427 or what? It has old chrome valve covers that have a small GM sticker on them.
Option B is to look for 1965 396 parts and build an engine that would run on today's lower octane, no-lead fuel. We used to be able to get 103 ocatane leaded Chevron "Custion Supreme" that made 11:1 compression ratio and tight cam timing more possible possible and easy to tune, but those days are long gone. The 208 heads would have to be reworked with hardened seats for example. Not sure what other work would be needed, but this at least $10k by Forum experts.
Which all the above uncertainties lead me closer to Option C the 425 HP GM Crate engine. It is made very close to the old school 396 engine. Same basic block, stroked a tad to 454 CI to make up for lost power. Rectangular parts like the 1965 engine. Cast Iron heads like the 65. But with a roller cam and a 12 month warranty. All for under $6k delivered.
So any choice would be acceptable and each have their advantages.
I am looking to build a decent street car w show paint and factory stock as is reasonable based on my original engine gone and everything else restorable.
My car factory specs:
1965 Convert w black softtop
RPO
C07 Auxiliary Hardtop (intact)
MM Milano Maroon exterior (intact)
N/A Maroon leather seats (intact but stained black)
L78 425 HP 396 Turbofire engine
F40 Special Front/Rear Suspension (all intact)
M20 4-speed (intact) w 3.70 rear (intact)
G81 Positraction Rear Axle (intact)
N14 Factory sidepipes (intact)
A31 Power windows (intact)
J50 Power brakes (intact)
U69 Am/FM Radio (intact)
List 3124 Holley (intact)
Standard Heater (intact)
N36 Telescopic Steering Column (not installed)
Exhaust manifolds 3856301 and 2 (intact)
Recall the original owner "blew up the 65 396 engine" and had another engine installed. The car was last registered in Oregon in 1980. It has sat since. No rust on birdcage, little rust elsewhere either.
If you were me, what option would you choose?
07-20-2010, 12:33 PM
#33
Melting Slicks
For what it's worth. Some dealers are discounting the ZZ427/480 by 25%. (dealer to dealer price). If you have any connections you should be able to get this engine for only $600 more than the 454.
It is rated at 50 more hp, and 10 lbs less torque. It comes with aluminum heads, aluminum waterpump, balancer, 870 Holley, distributor, plug wires and a flex plate.
Also, the heads are oval port which is much better for what you are planning.
By far the better choice imho...and after all a 427 was king back in the day..more era correct.
Stan...
It is rated at 50 more hp, and 10 lbs less torque. It comes with aluminum heads, aluminum waterpump, balancer, 870 Holley, distributor, plug wires and a flex plate.
Also, the heads are oval port which is much better for what you are planning.
By far the better choice imho...and after all a 427 was king back in the day..more era correct.
Stan...
07-20-2010, 12:35 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
For what it's worth. Some dealers are discounting the ZZ427/480 by 25%. (dealer to dealer price). If you have any connections you should be able to get this engine for only $600 more than the 454.
It is rated at 50 more hp, and 10 lbs less torque. It comes with aluminum heads, aluminum waterpump, balancer, 870 Holley, distributor, plug wires and a flex plate.
Also, the heads are oval port which is much better for what you are planning.
By far the better choice imho...and after all a 427 was king back in the day..more era correct.
Stan...
It is rated at 50 more hp, and 10 lbs less torque. It comes with aluminum heads, aluminum waterpump, balancer, 870 Holley, distributor, plug wires and a flex plate.
Also, the heads are oval port which is much better for what you are planning.
By far the better choice imho...and after all a 427 was king back in the day..more era correct.
Stan...Do you have the GM part number? Good option, thanks!!
Edit: Found a online chart of GM crate engines
The best price I can find for 19166393 ZZ 427/430 is $8000 plus shipping. Save 70 lbs in weight w alum heads.
Last edited by Larry N. Johnson; 07-20-2010 at 02:52 PM. Reason: added 19166393 ZZ 427/430 info and chart link.
07-20-2010, 12:58 PM
#36
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But if everything on this car is original except for the engine, it does seem like a great candidate for a period correct engine.
If it were mine I'd probably install the most cost effective option and start building a correct engine at my leisure.
DT
07-20-2010, 04:50 PM
#37
Drifting
Sorry, I was assuming it was an appropriate 396 in an original 396 car.
But if everything on this car is original except for the engine, it does seem like a great candidate for a period correct engine.
If it were mine I'd probably install the most cost effective option and start building a correct engine at my leisure.
DT
But if everything on this car is original except for the engine, it does seem like a great candidate for a period correct engine.
If it were mine I'd probably install the most cost effective option and start building a correct engine at my leisure.
DT
The 396 is the start of the BB cars.Find a correct block then a crank, heads ...It will not be original but date code correct. You will only take a little hit. If your lucky you can find a Car guy that was teethed on the 396 and would enjoy bringing an original 396 Vette back to life.The 396/425hp car to me is the best since it is the first BB Vette.
07-20-2010, 05:19 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
OPTION A More info
MORE OPTION A DATA:
This is the block casting and head combination existing; might be bored bored to 427 as the fender badges are.
The CLB suffix code on the existing block is for a 300 hp but the 290 heads are on car so the specs might be as above.
Data located at Second Generation Super Sport Engines - the 396 .
This is the block casting and head combination existing; might be bored bored to 427 as the fender badges are.
1970 SS396 - L34 350hp (gross) Casting # GM P/N Description
Block 3969854 2 bolt main, suffix codes: CJH, CJI, CTW, CTX
Crankshaft various Forged steel
Heads 3964290 100 cc, 2.06/1.72 valves
Cam 3904364 3904359 symbol: OM, hydraulic - 0.461(I)/0.480(E) lift, 350I/352E duration
Pistons Flat w/valve relief - yields 10.25:1 compression
Intake 3955287 Iron, Quadrajet
Carb (A/T) 7040204 Federal Emissions, 4MV Quadrajet
Carb (A/T) 7040504 w/CA Emissions
Carb (M/T) 7040205 Federal Emissions
Carb (M/T) 7040505 w/CA Emissions
LH Exhaust 3909879 2.526", Rear Outlet, AIR
RH Exhaust 3916178 2.526", Rear Outlet, AIR
Distributor 1112000 single point w/vacuum
Alternator: Delcotron 37 Amp, part # 1100837
Water Pump: 3931065, or 3969811 (late 70)
Block 3969854 2 bolt main, suffix codes: CJH, CJI, CTW, CTX
Crankshaft various Forged steel
Heads 3964290 100 cc, 2.06/1.72 valves
Cam 3904364 3904359 symbol: OM, hydraulic - 0.461(I)/0.480(E) lift, 350I/352E duration
Pistons Flat w/valve relief - yields 10.25:1 compression
Intake 3955287 Iron, Quadrajet
Carb (A/T) 7040204 Federal Emissions, 4MV Quadrajet
Carb (A/T) 7040504 w/CA Emissions
Carb (M/T) 7040205 Federal Emissions
Carb (M/T) 7040505 w/CA Emissions
LH Exhaust 3909879 2.526", Rear Outlet, AIR
RH Exhaust 3916178 2.526", Rear Outlet, AIR
Distributor 1112000 single point w/vacuum
Alternator: Delcotron 37 Amp, part # 1100837
Water Pump: 3931065, or 3969811 (late 70)
The CLB suffix code on the existing block is for a 300 hp but the 290 heads are on car so the specs might be as above.
Data located at Second Generation Super Sport Engines - the 396 .
07-20-2010, 05:35 PM
#39
Melting Slicks
Stan,
Do you have the GM part number? Good option, thanks!!
Edit: Found a online chart of GM crate engines
The best price I can find for 19166393 ZZ 427/430 is $8000 plus shipping. Save 70 lbs in weight w alum heads.
Do you have the GM part number? Good option, thanks!!
Edit: Found a online chart of GM crate engines
The best price I can find for 19166393 ZZ 427/430 is $8000 plus shipping. Save 70 lbs in weight w alum heads.
It's still the best engine for the project...but may be out of budget.
Stan..
Last edited by Stan's Customs; 07-20-2010 at 05:52 PM.
