65 fi

The O-rings would required milling the top of the block. According to the shop owner .050 over should be enough to clean up the cylinders but that taper at the top will not allow the use of a conventional gasket. It does make me wonder if one screw-up on the milling for those O-rings and the block will be toast.
Asking the machinist about sleeving, he seemed to think T-sleeves would be the only option but he would have to deck the block ( I cannot lose the pad numbers and don't want a restamp).
In talking cost he threw out a number of 800 for sleeving but by the end of the conversation said 800 was for the T-sleeves only and not the install (which would be another 800-1000).
Having not gone through this before I really don't know if I am being taken for a ride or not but I do not want to chance the destruction of this block.

Corbrastang

Putting sleeves in all 8 typically costs between 1,000-1,200.

bertbrown

65fi,

Follow John Neas' advice. Get the best machinist you can, verify wall thickness, and work with custom oversize pistons. Let's face it, you are not going to thrash this engine, you are going for Top Flight. If you end up with a 0.063" overbore, it doesn't matter. Pistons can be made for this engine.

How big are the ridges? Get your machinist to sonic test the walls. Otherwise, everyone is just speculating before you get real facts.

Sleeving means you deck the block!

Does the machinist mean that a chamfer has been put in the top of the bores? (taper milled??) Can you measure the OD of the chamfer?

Remember the machinist wants to do this the best way for him to ensure the engine works and does not come back to bite him. It may be better to find a machinist that is sympathetic to restoration problems and work with him. Not to say that your guy is not good, just be prepared to pay for extra special care in doing all these measurements.

Good luck.

LSUvetteguy

I just had my 64 2870 block sleeved. Price was 100 per hole but they gave me a break for doing all 8. Total cost was $500. for the 8 sleeves. They decked the cylinder area but stopped short of the pad. I'm back to standard and very happy with the outcome.

MikeM

Your first post said the block was already bored .060 over? Now it's .050 over?

Taper at the top of the cylinder bore? How much? The 400 SBC uses a .125 bigger bore than your engine which additive to the two center cylinders means the 400 gasket has .125 less meat to seat on than your stock bore engine or the same interface as a stock bore 400.

I think somebody is pulling your ying yang.

midyearvette

..this is really the only way to treat a vintage engine and insure it's longevity ..i have had it done several times and no problems.....after all how much is the car worth and this way you know you did your best....usually 1000.00 does the job and you have better than new.....

65 fi

Mike, Sorry about the typo. I thought most people would realize I hit the keys out of sequence. I meant to say an additional .OO5 not .050.
My yang is just fine but my ying was a little off.

bertbrown

65fi,

Just noticed you are in Alamo. I am in Danville. I have a virgin 327 block sitting in the garage you can measure to verify what a standard untouched deck looks like. I am concerned about this discussion about O ringing the deck. As MikeM points out, a 400 small block has a much bigger bore!

Who is your machinist?

65 fi

Bert, I am in Alamo only on ocassion now. We lived on Wayne Ave. and sold in July. We had a house in Santa Barbara and decided to move there full time. The machinist is Dave's Machine Shop in Newark. He seems very honest and also seems to understand the desire to retain the pad and numbers. He is planning to sonic test the block. He feels the ridge reaming was done without either proper experience and/or regard for the ramifications. Seems the best option (in light of the 327 not being a favorable canidate for sleeving) is to consider the O-rings.
I actually have another block (the engine that was in the car when I bought it). So, I appreciate your offer but I do have a reference point.
Well, things could be of more concern than my engine. We have be watching the current fire in Santa Barbara and certainly are concerned for those that have lost their homes and the 8,000 evacuated residents that are wondering what they will have to return to.

bertbrown

Sorry, don't know Dave's Machine shop. Since he is going to sonic test the block, at least you will know what you are dealing with and can make informed decisions.

And.......I think I finally understand what is going on here. If I understand correctly, it sounds like someone went ape with the ridge reamer and overbored the top of the cylinder! Wow! That is not good.

The news sounds terrible in SB. My parents lost a condo to a big wildfire there about 25 years ago.

65 fi

Bert, you are understanding the problem correctly. There is some flat area between cylinders. My thought this morning is to see about having special gaskets made. The downfall to O-Rings is they will isolate the compression taking place in the cylinder but there is still the water jacket that would be dependant on silicone and copper gaskets.

bertbrown

Actually I think you may be better off with sleeves if the overbore is too big. You will need to restore the top of the cylinder. Do you have a measurement of the overbore done by the ridge reamer?

I don't have any experience with decking blocks and stopping short of the VIN pad. Others on this forum do, so it looks like it can be done.

65 fi

The pad can be saved (just requires some time and effort). Evidently, having spoken with Tim Morgan @ Morgan's machine shop and Dave, 327s are not good candidates for sleeving. Cobrastang wrote to tell me he has been told the same thing. Not to say it won't work but I believe it would be better to avoid if possible (based upon the sources). I just got off the phone with SCE gaskets. They seem to feel they can custom make a gasket that may be able to satisfy my concerns. We'll know more after Dave has a chance to speak with SCE himself.

tomo67

Regarding sleeving costs, I had my original '59 283 block in for an overhaul and three cylinders needed a sleeve. The cost was $45 per cylinder a year ago in San Antonio. I guess I got off cheaply.

Best of luck with your 327.

Tom

MikeM

Well, if it's been bored then, .060 and has .0025 max ridge reamer intrusion into the overbore, you are wasting a TON of money on overboring and "special" head gaskets.

jkuzzy

Not that I am a knowledgeable person when it comes to engine building, but I just had my motor rebuilt. I found out after breaking into it that it was already 40 over and we went to 60. My builder told me that would be fine, but 61 was not. He also talked about putting in sleeves and I know it wasn't that expensive.

65 fi

Wow, the cost of sleeving sounds much better in Texas. It may be worth it to send it (if I end up having to go that direction). I have told the cost of sleeves alone could be 100 per cylinder plus another 100 for installation.

jkuzzy

Send it to me, I'll hook you up!

BADBIRDCAGE

I've been following this thread and, having spent about 15 years in an automotive machine shop back in the old days, I decided to price out sleeves. NAPA sells 1/8 wall sleeves for a 327 over the counter for $69.00 each. A good machine shop gets them at jobber/rebuilder price which would be less.

During my tenor in the machine shop business we sleeved more than one block back to standard from max overbore. Once you get set up it isn't that bad a job and can easily be accomplished in an eight hour day. That's with the (now) antique equipment we used. Now it is even easier and faster with the much improved equipment. If it is a financially controlled decision you can always do a re-ring and bearing job on the motor.

A comment was made about using cast iron rings if you didn't either further oversize the cylinders by boring or honing as a glaze buster wasn't designed to provide proper finish for moly rings. Absolutely correct. But if you are doing a re-ring you would use cast iron rings anyway.

The unknown is the deck surfaces. As described I can't get my head around what is actually going on there. Photos would help.

Rich

HighTimes61

I feel your pain! I too once purchased an engine very similar to yours!
FIRST.If your machine shop does not know the answer to these questions, Get your block out of there!
If you NEED/WANT it to be perfect get it out and find someone who does sleeving on a regular basis and can preserve the stamped deck.
Ridge Reamer Taper at the top of bores is ugly but can work. A 350 hd gasket is much larger than the 4 inch bore. You can get a new head Gasket and put it on the block to see if it will seal. Then you can put a 400 gasket [much bigger] in place and see if it will seal. all hd gaskets are much bigger than the bore, 400's are 4.125 plus room for over bore plus clearence. the gasket must not be uncovered and hang into the bore, but can be bigger than the bore.It all depends HOW BIG the taper is.Next you must make sure the top ring does not come up into the taper, its usually far below the top. if either one happens you need to sleeve the block. If these are ok you could use the block.
The MOST important thing is piston to wall clearance, measured across piston skirt. This ALONE determines whether the bore/piston combo is suitable. If piston/wall clearance is not too great and the bores are not too tapered. you can have the machine shop RIGID HONE the block for new rings. I have run as much as .008 with forged pistons in a race motor[really stretching it for steet!]. clearance will get tighter as you go down but a RIGID HONE can take some of the taper out. You can RIGID HONE THE BLOCK for .005 clearance [spec] with forged pistons which use more clearance than cast [.001 spec]and it would be fine. .065 over rings are pretty standard, are file to fit and readily available. If the block cannot be rigid honed for acceptable clearance you will need to sleeve.
The taper and large bore gaskets would lower the compression some but if it all sealed would not be a big deal. too much wall clearance could cause a piston knock like the new chevy trucks/corvettes but would not hurt anything. It would run fine. cast rings are fine more so if the walls are less than perfect.
Again If this stuff is new to your machinist GET YOUR BLOCK out of there.