I have seen the Mongoose Grand Sport cars on both the road and the Race track and if this statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Lockwood
The engineering behind this car stunk to high heaven
is true I don't know how these cars have turned so many fast laps at tracks beating many other factory built race cars. The one thing I know is poor engineering will show up on the race track. That much I have learned in the 20+ years I have on track.
I also know first hand. because I spend some quality time in their prototype GTP car that they are great guys to deal with. Gary who runs the shop is very straightforward and honest. Can the same be said dating way back to the D&D cars? I don't know. But I do know they are well funded, have a stand up guy who owns the company and another stand up guy who runs it.
I have no financial connection to Mongoose so what I say is just based on my own personal experience and I'm one to speak my mind if someone deserves it, but some of the things said about Mongoose simply are not true. NOBODY associated with D&D is still with Mongoose from the conversations I have had with them. And so relating them is not a fair or accurate statement.
Go to the shop look at their facilities, and the cars (Last time I was there they had 3 Complete Grand Sports and another 3 or 4 being built), or call and speak with Gary. Judge for yourself, not from experiences dating back 10 years or more with people who are not connected any longer.
That's my thoughts on the subject. The Grand Sports are stellar cars and the best "I" have seen are the one Mongoose is selling.
I have seen the Mongoose Grand Sport cars on both the road and the Race track and if this statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Lockwood
The engineering behind this car stunk to high heaven
is true I don't know how these cars have turned so many fast laps at tracks beating many other factory built race cars.
My statement is absolutely true, but you are comparing apples and oranges.
The car to which I was referring is our D&D Grand Sport. It is a near-certainty that it has the first tube frame chassis Dean and Dante constructed. It is unlike any other D&D chassis I've seen and I've seen a lot of them. Its construction reflected a complete lack of understanding of steering geometry and a lack of "thinking things through" regarding the rear suspension. As far as I can determine, all of the early frames, up to #038, had/have the same awful implementation "features" as ours had when we got it.
Mongoose frames that I've seen in pictures (I've never seen a Mongoose car up close), look like the later D&D frames (#039 and forward). These appear to have corrected the gawdawful, asymmetric bump steer and near-complete lack of rear suspension travel found on early frames.
I have first hand knowledge of one D&D car that competes in SCCA vintage racing here on the left coast. It has the 2nd design frame and the track manners of that car are fine.
My statement is absolutely true, but you are comparing apples and oranges.
The car to which I was referring is our D&D Grand Sport. It is a near-certainty that it has the first tube frame chassis Dean and Dante constructed. It is unlike any other D&D chassis I've seen and I've seen a lot of them. Its construction reflected a complete lack of understanding of steering geometry and a lack of "thinking things through" regarding the rear suspension. As far as I can determine, all of the early frames, up to #038, had/have the same awful implementation "features" as ours had when we got it.
Mongoose frames that I've seen in pictures (I've never seen a Mongoose car up close), look like the later D&D frames (#039 and forward). These appear to have corrected the gawdawful, asymmetric bump steer and near-complete lack of rear suspension travel found on early frames.
I have first hand knowledge of one D&D car that competes in SCCA vintage racing here on the left coast. It has the 2nd design frame and the track manners of that car are fine.
Jim
Thanks for clearing that up Jim. I have been shocked at how well put together the Mongoose Grand Sports were. I also know with no suspension tweaks at the recent run and gun against all the big cobra builders they dominated the road course (just like the old days) and the drag strip with the Grand Sport running mid 10's. Being able to hook and run like that at the strip and run away from Everyone on the road course tells me these cars are VERY well sorted. And 4 days of trouble free running with I believe Aaron their driver told me, about 3 hours a day on track confirms that.
Someday I'll get one for myself. Till then I'll have to live with my C5.
If you think the kits are bad you should have seen GS #004 when it came into the Collection. The entire car had to be done over after someone "restored" it.
My statement is absolutely true, but you are comparing apples and oranges.
The car to which I was referring is our D&D Grand Sport. It is a near-certainty that it has the first tube frame chassis Dean and Dante constructed. It is unlike any other D&D chassis I've seen and I've seen a lot of them. Its construction reflected a complete lack of understanding of steering geometry and a lack of "thinking things through" regarding the rear suspension. As far as I can determine, all of the early frames, up to #038, had/have the same awful implementation "features" as ours had when we got it.
Mongoose frames that I've seen in pictures (I've never seen a Mongoose car up close), look like the later D&D frames (#039 and forward). These appear to have corrected the gawdawful, asymmetric bump steer and near-complete lack of rear suspension travel found on early frames.
I have first hand knowledge of one D&D car that competes in SCCA vintage racing here on the left coast. It has the 2nd design frame and the track manners of that car are fine.
Jim
Your the one comparing apples to oranges. we are not talking about D&D they are gone and history.
How can you say anything about Mongoose when you never seen one. Mongoose has won TOP DOG 2 years in a row at the Run & Gun kit car meet, they beat every cobra at the London cobra meet. I have not seen any other Grandsport kit car builders put there money where there mouth is.
Gary is a great guy, call him next time your in town and he will show you anything you want to see.
I must agree with Jim on this. None of them are kits. I built one D&D coupe and one Mid America roadster. The D&D body needed much support work done. No bird gage. I almost built a 3rd but I could not find a good donor for another Mid America coupe. I did pay Jeff for a chassis I never got but thats another story.
The Mongoose cars are no better than the D&D car was when Dean was building them. I built both my cars ground up. When I bought my D&D parts I wanted it all raw. In did not even let Dean glue the headliner in.
You will find that the D&D or now called Mongoose cars have much body shake or cowl shake. The doors do not close nice. Mongoose also uses cheap claw type door latchs and non stock corvette door hinges. You need to do alot of fabrication to make a nice tight drivable car. Anyone can make a car look good standing still. But it takes skill to make one drive and feel good. Let alone be safe.
Mid America is the way to go but same thing you better be a very good bodyman. Thats what I do. And you need a donor car. Thats not easy to find and the cost is high. Try to find a midyear coupe rear clip with a good bird gage with doors and papers. Not cheap.
Heres pics of both my cars. Both are now sold. The D&D coupe is in Fla. And the roadster is in Calif. If you have any questions feel free to contact me. Brian G.
Just curious about your first hand experience with Mongoose and why you have come to those conclusions?
BTW nice GS pics and builds...you should definitely build another GS!
Just curious about your first hand experience with Mongoose and why you have come to those conclusions?
I agree, what experience do you have with Mongoose. Also unless I am mistaken (and if so please don't tell my wife) I saw C2 hinges on the Mongoose cars.
It seems to me as if you are judging based on past experience rather then current knowledge. Things change. I know first hand old Lamborghini's were a total PITA nightmare while the new ones (produced under a new company) are substancially better. I also know my own company has purchased smaller ones and taken the good things from them while discarding the crap to build something viable.
It's sad that you would be so closed minded to see that possibility and talk bad about a product you seemingly know little about.
I don't want to create a pissing match with "aworks" who based on the beauty of his own build is very GS savvy, but I just can't see where it's necessary to relate the two different companies past and present.
Last edited by RogueVette; 12-19-2008 at 02:34 AM.
Just curious about your first hand experience with Mongoose and why you have come to those conclusions?
BTW nice GS pics and builds...you should definitely build another GS!
First. Thank you for the compliment.
I'm not a chassis guy so I can not say how well the chassis is engineered. I can say both my cars drove very well and handled like they where on rails. But from looking at and talking to the people at Carlisle that where running there vendors spot. I can see the bodys are not that great. The first thing I did (And anyone with a D&D based car will know why I did this.) was to ask if I could open the door. I was told sure. When I opened the door and it dropped like a rock I already had my answer. Like I said before,the cars have poor structural integrity.
Now this can be fixed without building a full birdcage. Ever look at some of the top streetrod bodys? Some of them are built stronger than the steel body car they copy.
The GS bodys need to start with a good rocker channel and those should be part of (welded to ) the a and b pillars. You could use high density foam to go up and around the roof. I could go on forever as to how to make those bodys last.
Bottom line is most people that buy one of these cars is going to drive it on the street not on the track. It will be there toy. When doors don't fit and the bodys stress crack they will not be happy. There was a Mongoose car for sale in Fla last year. it was about a year old. I talked to the owner and he was not happy with the way the car looked after a year. And I could see why. The D&D coupe I built after ten years now still looks like the day I sold it. As far as I know there are no cracks and my doors fit and close like a stock Corvette. I keep in touch with the guys that now own both my cars.
These guys building the bodys need to step back and look at why GM built that birdcage in the first place. I'm not saying they need to build it just like GM did. The cost would be high. But I did it and they could to. If they ever do then they will have one hell of a nice car.
Originally Posted by n1kon View Post
Just curious about your first hand experience with Mongoose and why you have come to those conclusions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueVette
I agree, what experience do you have with Mongoose.
These are two reasonable observations. "You've never seen a Mongoose car, so how could you know anything about it?" I'll tell you how.
Grant me that it takes a lot of time, thought, and effort to build a reproduction Grand Sport. Grant me also that probably also takes a lot of time, thought, and effort to FIX the problems that were designed into a reproduction Grand Sport. And finally, grant me that if you are at all conscious while you do these things, you learn to spot the problems on sight.... it doesn't take rigorous study to uncover them. You just automatically know where to look when you see a Grand Sport for the first time, even if only in a picture.
I've never seen D&D #021, but I can tell you from looking at pictures of it that its steering geometry is as goofy as was the geometry on my D&D prototype.
Neither have I seen D&D #039, but from pictures I can tell you that its steering geometry has been fixed.
Brian had never seen a Mongoose before Carlisle, but he just knew to go check the door to see how well supported it was at the hinge pillar.
To imply that Brian and I can't speak with some authority about the provable and probable issues inherent in a Mongoose is to imply that we've learned nothing from literally years of involvement with repro Grand Sports.
I agree, what experience do you have with Mongoose. Also unless I am mistaken (and if so please don't tell my wife) I saw C2 hinges on the Mongoose cars.
It seems to me as if you are judging based on past experience rather then current knowledge. Things change. I know first hand old Lamborghini's were a total PITA nightmare while the new ones (produced under a new company) are substancially better. I also know my own company has purchased smaller ones and taken the good things from them while discarding the crap to build something viable.
It's sad that you would be so closed minded to see that possibility and talk bad about a product you seemingly know little about.
I don't want to create a pissing match with "aworks" who based on the beauty of his own build is very GS savvy, but I just can't see where it's necessary to relate the two different companies past and present.
After watching the three deeply knowledgeable guys post up here with their thoughts on the GS "kits" in response to the OP's request for info, and then watching the subsequent name calling when their points of view did not match that of some subesequent posters, I am left to wish I had not encouraged Brian to get involved in this thread. If you have a contrary point of view, by all means share it, but to start calling names and getting all nasty simply because you disagree with a member's opinion only does one thing: it decreases the value we assign to your point of view, and any posts from you for that matter. For my money, I will continue to have great respect for the thoughts and opinions of JohnZ, aworks and Jim lockwood on the general Grand Sport replica topic; among them they have built 4 fine examples.
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For my money, I will continue to have great respect for the thoughts and opinions of JohnZ, aworks and Jim lockwood on the general Grand Sport replica topic; among them they have built 4 fine examples.
Neither have I seen D&D #039, but from pictures I can tell you that its steering geometry has been fixed.
Jim, #039 was mine - after spending two days in the D&D shop in Akron looking at all the details before I decided to build one, I "consulted" with Dean and Dante about the bump-steer geometry and rear suspension travel deficiencies I noted, and they incorporated my changes when they fabricated the frame (and used the Appleton sprint car steering rack I recommended).
I'm not a chassis guy so I can not say how well the chassis is engineered. I can say both my cars drove very well and handled like they where on rails. But from looking at and talking to the people at Carlisle that where running there vendors spot. I can see the bodys are not that great. The first thing I did (And anyone with a D&D based car will know why I did this.) was to ask if I could open the door. I was told sure. When I opened the door and it dropped like a rock I already had my answer. Like I said before,the cars have poor structural integrity.
Now this can be fixed without building a full birdcage. Ever look at some of the top streetrod bodys? Some of them are built stronger than the steel body car they copy.
The GS bodys need to start with a good rocker channel and those should be part of (welded to ) the a and b pillars. You could use high density foam to go up and around the roof. I could go on forever as to how to make those bodys last.
Bottom line is most people that buy one of these cars is going to drive it on the street not on the track. It will be there toy. When doors don't fit and the bodys stress crack they will not be happy. There was a Mongoose car for sale in Fla last year. it was about a year old. I talked to the owner and he was not happy with the way the car looked after a year. And I could see why. The D&D coupe I built after ten years now still looks like the day I sold it. As far as I know there are no cracks and my doors fit and close like a stock Corvette. I keep in touch with the guys that now own both my cars.
These guys building the bodys need to step back and look at why GM built that birdcage in the first place. I'm not saying they need to build it just like GM did. The cost would be high. But I did it and they could to. If they ever do then they will have one hell of a nice car.
Brian G.
Thanks for the reply Brian, I really appreciate your insight. So basically you're saying (or at least what I am gathering from your post) is that to have a nice working GS...having a birdcage is the way to go. So basically as far as performance the Mongoose well sorted. With the body fit(tightness) should be fixed with the addition of a birdcage. Right?
Edit: BTW what are the tire sizes that you had on the coupe in the 1st photo? Thanks again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim lockwood
To imply that Brian and I can't speak with some authority about the provable and probable issues inherent in a Mongoose is to imply that we've learned nothing from literally years of involvement with repro Grand Sports.
Jim
Hi Jim I hope you are not referring to me as implying anything about Brian's or your knowledge about building a Grand Sport. I know you both have extensive knowledge about this subject. I was simply curious as to what it was that let him know what the problems were and what could be done to solve them. When I eventually have the $$ to build one for myself I hope you will let me "sponge" your brain for tips
After watching the three deeply knowledgeable guys post up here with their thoughts on the GS "kits" in response to the OP's request for info, and then watching the subsequent name calling when their points of view did not match that of some subesequent posters, I am left to wish I had not encouraged Brian to get involved in this thread. If you have a contrary point of view, by all means share it, but to start calling names and getting all nasty simply because you disagree with a member's opinion only does one thing: it decreases the value we assign to your point of view, and any posts from you for that matter. For my money, I will continue to have great respect for the thoughts and opinions of JohnZ, aworks and Jim lockwood on the general Grand Sport replica topic; among them they have built 4 fine examples.
Name calling? Nasty? I asked questions that I am very open to hearing a response on, and stated facts about certain things. You are very easily rattled with simple words if you believe I said anything nasty or called anyone a name. I wish you luck in dealing with people everyday. Wow....
I respect the all builds that all have done. Can they be done for the same price point and in the same amount of time as the Mongoose cars? I'd really have to question that, but I suppose it's possible. Lots of things can be made better with time and money. You have to ask what specific value you are looking for.
I first found out about the Mongoose cars because I met an owner in South Carolina who raved about the car and was one of the first Mongoose cars that was delivered from the new company. He loved the damn thing and had put nearly 20K miles on it in just over a year. I drove the car and was impressed with it's overall quality. I have spoken with him since and he's got another 10K on it including a drive across the country to Jackson Hole this summer. Having seen that "one" example along with seeing the cars on track various times this last year and a half, I was shocked at how tight all the cars I have seen were. Are they as good as the ones that rolled out of the GM factory? For the Price I would be amazed if that was possible, but I do know they are quality. I live in Cincy and have seen the real ones here. Overall it's pretty impressive the match.
But not nearly as impressive as they have been on the race track, and as a racer and track junkie I can tell you that is more important to "me", I've just never been much of a waxer, more of a driving kinda guy, and the thought of fooling someone into thinking it was a real one would NEVER enter my mind.
But everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Right, wrong or just plain WAY off the mark.
When I eventually have the $$ to build one for myself I hope you will let me "sponge" your brain for tips
Absolutely. I'm happy to share what I've learned about these cars in regards to historic accuracy, safety, reliability, track preparation, and..... well, practically anything. Ask away, anytime.
