MikeM

[QUOTE=FASTZ;1568177067]Why should Uncle Sam be expected to pay it if the company fails.Ask the steelworkers if they did it for them.



Because it was signed into law, that's why.

If it makes you feel any better, in my youth, I too was a United Steel Worker. Inland Steel, 100" plate mill. Gary, Indiana. Helluva' way to make a living. They had some really outrageous work rules and some really antiquainted steel making processes. That's why they failed if they in fact did.

As a shear operator, I didn't have to hit a lick if they were rolling steel plate thicker than 5/8". Just punch in and sit on my butt. I didn't though, I helped around with the others work as I wasn't lazy. One time I didn't hit a lick for three days unless I just wanted to do something.

In my 31 years of working with and beside the UAW, I never saw anything close to the outrageous work rules like the steelworkers. I never had any problem with any of the work rules of the UAW. They were very easy to work with.

65 goldline

MikeM has made many valid points from an insiders point of view that I have to agree with.

Seaside63

cross posted----
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Friends,

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers start building only cars and mass transit that reduce our dependency on oil.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers build cars that reduce global warming.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers withdraw their many lawsuits against state governments in their attempts to not comply with our environmental laws.

They could have given the loan on the condition that the management team which drove these once-great manufacturers into the ground resign and be replaced with a team who understands the transportation needs of the 21st century.

=====

Yes, they could have given the loan for any of these reasons because, in the end, to lose our manufacturing infrastructure and throw 3 million people out of work would be a catastrophe.

But instead, the Senate said, we'll give you the loan only if the factory workers take a $20 an hour cut in wages, pension and health care. That's right. After giving BILLIONS to Wall Street hucksters and criminal investment bankers -- billions with no strings attached and, as we have since learned, no oversight whatsoever -- the Senate decided it is more important to break a union, more important to throw middle class wage earners into the ranks of the working poor than to prevent the total collapse of industrial America.

We have a little more than a month to go of this madness. As I sit here in Michigan today, tens of thousands of hard working, honest, decent Americans do not believe they can make it to January 20th.

The malaise here is astounding. Why must they suffer because of the mistakes of every CEO from Roger Smith to Rick Wagoner? Make management and the boards of directors and the shareholders pay for this.

Of course that is heresy to the 31 Republicans who decided to blame the poor, miserable autoworkers for this mess. And our wonderful media complied with their spin on the morning news shows: "UAW Refuses to Give Concessions Killing Auto Bailout Bill."

In fact the UAW has given concession after concession, reduced their benefits, agreed to get rid of the Jobs Bank and agreed to make it harder for their retirees to live from week to week.

Yes! That's what we need to do! It's the Jobs Bank and the old people who have led the nation to economic ruin!

But even doing all that wasn't enough to satisfy the bastard Republicans. These Senate vampires wanted blood. Blue collar blood. You see, they weren't opposed to the bailout because they believed in the free market or capitalism. No, they were opposed to the bailout because they're opposed to workers making a decent wage.

In their rage, they were driven to destroy the backbone of this country, not because the UAW hadn't given back enough, but because the UAW hadn't given up.

It appears that the sitting President has been looking for a way to end his reign by one magnanimous act, just like a warlord on his feast day. He will put his finger in the dike, and the fragile mess of an auto industry will eke through the next few months.

That will give the Senate enough time to demand that the bankers and investment sharks who've already swiped nearly half of the $700 billion gift a chance to make the offer of cutting their pay.

Fat chance.

Yours,
Michael Moore

Dan Hampton

How about self funding your own retirement; that way YOU control your own financial destiny, as opposed to relying on someone else to do it for you.

LB66383

So Mike M.......all of those workers at that new non-union Honda factory there by your home town must be really impoverished.

Richard454

This Country was made GREAT by the PEOPLE- NOT the Government.

Michael Moore? His words of wisdom? If it's so bad here-I'll be GLAD to buy you a one way airline ticket to anywhere in the world- Just renounce your citizenship.

MikeM- are you serious?- Turn the clock back one hundred years?

OK- How about this-

You cannot help the poor, by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak, by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity, by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up, by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man, by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage, by taking away men's initiative and independence.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.

Know who wrote this?
Does Abraham Lincoln sound familiar?

GCD1962

That's what I did. Retired before I was 60. Didn't make real big money but saved and invested. Nice home - paid for, in a nice area, 9 cars - all paid for including a new '09 C-6. You can do it on your own if you put your mind to it !

C2Driver

Timeless words.

- Pat

FASTZ

Michael Moore,another hollywood type who thinks that they know more about how to run a country then the people who do.And because they make movies we should listen to them.The only thing more screwed up than Washington is Hollywood.California fancy's it self on the cutting edge of what America should be.They tell us that what the people want is to speak their own mind and will vote that way.But when that same state votes down gay marriage they complain that it was outsiders that swayed the vote.I do not know about California but in Ohio only people that live in Ohio can vote here.So I guess not everyone agrees with the loud political celebrities.

ghostrider20

EXACTLY. The world did not come to an end.

Congress' approval rating is at 14%. How much longer are we going to allow the ruling political elite to run America in to the dirt. Good men, like the men here, ought to march up Capitol Hill and throw those deadbeats out on the street. 2/3 of our elected officials have done one of the following; bankrupted businesses, charged with drugs, prostitution, bribery, DUI, tax evasion, overdrawn their "house bank account" by thousands, take pay-off's, the list goes on. And we keep sending them there.

Mark

MikeM

That is pretty much my pattern. I saved and invested out of every paycheck. If I had not done this, I would not be in too good of shape right now.

I think I've already said this twice, I don't support a bailout of anybody but I am really sick to death of seeing people over the last 20 years or so, take big money from a company in compensation, all the while running same right into the ground. At the same time, all the employess and share holders in the company lose everything they have worked for including savings, retirement funds or even their livelyhood. Then, these same people who couldn't run a one man hot dog stand, among others, turn around and blame the unions for their ineptness or crookedness.

And I am just as tired hearing about how it's all the UAW's fault from people who really have no clue.

I spent 31 years inside the bowels of Ford Motor Company. I started on the line in 1967 after applying for a line supervisor's job, to gain some experience. I spent six years paying UAW dues. I walked a picket line in '67 during a long strike. By '72, I was a supervisor and had to deal with the UAW daily on the other side of the fence. I took several promotions up the ladder in production supervision. Almost lost my job during the Company's hard times in the early '80's. Later, I moved into process engineering, manufacturing engineering, quality control, body dimensional control and new model product development. Served as new model launch co-ordinator for two different assembly plants. Then, I retired at age 55 one year after I refused a buyout (if you die on the job, your spouse loses all survivor benefits after one year. Neat, huh?) . I got called back as an "advisor" a number of times.

The point of this is two fold. Number one, I can row by own boat as evidenced by my work record. Number two, after being around the block a few times, I have a fair idea what's what, when it comes to how large companies like auto companies can flush cash right down the toilet without batting an eye, all the while explaining the reason away as "some other cause". I could get into "a lot" of detail here but I don't see where it's worth the effort as my detractors have already made up their mind who the culprit is here.

For those of you who have never worked for a wage by the hour, or been involved in contract negotiations, or know how agreements are reached are not even qualified to speak on the subject of unions as you know not what you are talking about.

Some of your comments about "UAW lack of quality workmanship" are just as telling of your ignorance of the matter. The real truth is, most quality problems in automobiles as seen by the customer are NOT caused by poor and careless workmanship. They're caused by poor/careless engineering of a part or assembly, or assembly tooling and quite often by some financial decision made during new model development. In other words, the assembly plant can't make a "silk purse out of a sow's ear" consistently.

I'm not nearly as concerned for myself as I am for many of those great people I worked with for so many years, at many different Ford locations around the country, both hourly and salary, that didn't have the foresight to put back some money for the day they might need it. And it really p....s me off to hear some of you bashing these same good people just because they paid UAW dues and you don't even know them. I'm also concerned that many of these same people (and others) have bought common stock shares in their companies and in some cases make up much of their life savings. If there is a bankruptcy, these people's savings will be gone. These same "greedy" UAW people that invested in their own company.

I just don't get it why some of you people are so gleeful to see such misery.

Frankie the Fink

I didn't put the remark in quotes - it's a logical extension of the post attributing the demise of Soc Sec benefits to auto workers' wage reduction. BTW - I was in the Postal Workers' union for a while...some things they did were good....some not so good. In their zeal to defend every member they promoted a lot of mediocre performers. Sorry - just my opinion.

I draw a small, old-time, defined benefit, gov't pension for 26 years of service which included bolting engines and avionics into F-14s, A-6s, F-4s on the flight line - a stint overseas as an Army enlisted man, and working 12 hour days for several years on Navy flight simulators. I supplement my pension with smart investments so I eat steak once in a while instead of peanut butter.

I retired quite early largely out of disgruntlement with the Fed gov't after reaching executive level. You and I aren't that far apart on that score my friend..but I did earn my pension. You can't compare the Fed employees of today with folks that came on board in the '70s, post 'Nam, out of a sense of public duty instead of avarice.

Having said that I think it sucks out loud that the American standard of living for most of the citizens is declining. There is a global correction coming based on so much "conspicuous consumption" that has been brewing since the Eisenhower days. The UAW, nor anybody else, is going to be able to dodge it.

Miami Stingray

It comes down to that some people just hate unions. No matter what evidence you show them, it's still the unions fault. These southern Republican senators are just itching to bust the UAW. If it was not for unions we all would not have 40 hour work weeks and vacations.

Seaside63

It's not just unions they hate, it's WORKERS. They are still living with the slave and plantation mentality.

Like it or not, 95% (+) of American money earners are WORKERS. Even those people in management are WORKERS.

These same union busters have been outsourcing and offshoring technical, engineering, financial, computer and every kind of "white collar" job you can think of, by the MILLIONS over the past 20 years. There is no safe career.

We have become an oligarchy.

They will not be satisfied until there are only wealthy Dukes, Barons and Earls and the rest of us are only peasants.

Now they are finally seeing the results of their ways. Without WORKERS there are no customers. No customers means no MONEY!

Dumb bastards are killing their golden geese.

53 Blue Flame Brett

RickSnow

" 2/3 of our elected officials have done one of the following; bankrupted businesses, charged with drugs, prostitution, bribery, DUI, tax evasion, overdrawn their "house bank account" by thousands, take pay-off's, the list goes on. "






YIKES!!!!!!!!

MikeM

What you say is actually the thrust of my point.

I just get the feeling that not too many are worried about it until it affects them.

GCD1962

As an addition to MikeM comments. It is not just the the auto companies that suffer from poor management and policies. Many of the large U.S. corporations also are guilty of these practices

stall

It's pretty rare when someone comes up with a short, concise explanation of a complex problem; You've done it.

Larry P

This is much like politics and religion in that there are extremist views on both sides. The extreme examples and isolated incidents are related and used as arguments.
We all know the unions are needed to protect workers from greed and abuse. We know unions take advantage of the power of a strike.
I have been in a few unions, in management and own my company.
I have seen the abuse and the good on both sides. This is because there are people on both sides that are greedy, self absorbed, short sighted and insecure.
I was told to slow down as a union worker and let down by union leaders when needed.
I have friends and relatives that are so insecure that they depend on the union rather then their own self confidence. I have also seen the abuse that management can exert in non-union protected workers. It is the extremes on both sides that cause the problems.
The big three agreed to the contracts with the UAW. If they can’t survive the results they alone should suffer the consequences.
If a major league sports team fails because they negotiated outrageous contracts with players, should we bail them out? If I make bad decisions that cause my small company to fail, is anybody going to bail me out? I have employees, what about them?
This is a democracy and in a democracy you get what you give and it is always going to be your personal decision making that guides your future.
JMHO
Larry