E-85 Conversion
04-25-2008, 11:43 AM
#21
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Also be aware that once you've completed all the work to convert to E85 (including an E85 carburetor), that's ALL you can run in it - you can't run normal gasoline with the E85 carb calibration and metering systems.
Modern fuel-injected cars that are E85-capable have sensors that continuously monitor the incoming fuel blend ratio (ethanol/gas) and report it to the ECM for the correct mixture/spark mapping; not so for carbureted cars - once you convert, you're stuck with that calibration.
Modern fuel-injected cars that are E85-capable have sensors that continuously monitor the incoming fuel blend ratio (ethanol/gas) and report it to the ECM for the correct mixture/spark mapping; not so for carbureted cars - once you convert, you're stuck with that calibration.
04-25-2008, 12:04 PM
#22
Drifting
IN response to some questions about E85.
You might wish to read up at e85.com
or e85forum.com
both have very helpful info about the fuel and how to run cars on it.
A
You might wish to read up at e85.com
or e85forum.com
both have very helpful info about the fuel and how to run cars on it.
A
04-25-2008, 12:33 PM
#23
Melting Slicks
i wish i could read and retain enough OBJECTIVE information about biofuels and E85 in particular to formulate a reasonable opinion.
What my gut tells me now is that it is another collossal boondoggle that the govt has gotten into. i have felt this all along and the recent rise in the cost of bread for my sandwich at noon seems to confirm it.
i am not interested in reading something from the E85 advocates.
where can you get a learned objective rational analysis of this subject???
it will effect my corvette....... now i'm legal
What my gut tells me now is that it is another collossal boondoggle that the govt has gotten into. i have felt this all along and the recent rise in the cost of bread for my sandwich at noon seems to confirm it.
i am not interested in reading something from the E85 advocates.
where can you get a learned objective rational analysis of this subject???
it will effect my corvette....... now i'm legal
04-25-2008, 01:17 PM
#24
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THere is no government subsidy to encourage E85 feedstock production (for) moving farmers from food to fuel.
There is simply new markets available for farmers to sell their product. The only "encouragement" is a tax credit to the consumer at the pump. This is to encourage CONSUMERS to use ethanol blends.
Every time I hear this rehetoric I try to set people straight and get blasted for it, but for anyone touting a subsidy, I ask them to show me where in the fedral budget and what line item it is. They cannot because It does not exist.
I have posted other FACTS with REFERENCES concerning this topic. Do a forum search and you will find my previous information with the accompanying references, not all of which are from E85 proponents.
As to the first comment about driving up the cost of food, I say about time the farmers finally got paid for the work and investment they have. The price of corn has held steady for 50 years. They only way a farmer could make a profit growing corn was to become more efficient. It's about time we channeled economic growth within our own borders instead of sending our monies overseas.
04-25-2008, 02:05 PM
#25
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Interesting thread on a subject I know nothing about. Probably because I live in the northeast. I've never seen it advertised for sale around here.
However, there is an interesting article on the CNBC websight now, Friday afternoon, about the poor prognosis for ethanol based fuel. You guys may find this worth considering while evaluating your options.
Personally, for the amount of driving I do in my mid-year, I can't see the benefit to changing over to a new and uncertain technology. Who knows what will be the "hot " alternative fuel by 2010; but I bet there will be something new.
Please keep us updated if you do go forward. Good stuff to know.
Rob
However, there is an interesting article on the CNBC websight now, Friday afternoon, about the poor prognosis for ethanol based fuel. You guys may find this worth considering while evaluating your options.
Personally, for the amount of driving I do in my mid-year, I can't see the benefit to changing over to a new and uncertain technology. Who knows what will be the "hot " alternative fuel by 2010; but I bet there will be something new.
Please keep us updated if you do go forward. Good stuff to know.
Rob
04-25-2008, 05:05 PM
#27
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BTUwise, E85 @ $2.89 a gallon is the same price as plain old gas @ $3.99 a gallon.
If your gas is "hovering" @ $4.00/gal., what's the point in switching.
Rest assured that the price of E85 will rise commensurately with any rises in gas prices. That's my guess anyway.
If your gas is "hovering" @ $4.00/gal., what's the point in switching.
Rest assured that the price of E85 will rise commensurately with any rises in gas prices. That's my guess anyway.
04-25-2008, 05:26 PM
#28
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St. Jude Donor '07
ALOT of incorrect information in this post.
E85 represents 85% ethanol, and carries an octane rating of 105-110.
The reason it burns slower and is less effecient is becasue of the high octane and ethanol.. this is not uncommon with alchohol motors.
in order to make ethanol effecient, you must raise compression...
this is why FLEXFUEL vehicles loose fuel economy.
In a muscle car, where the compression is already up near 11 to 1 (in the case of high performance 60s engines) the ethanol will do just fine.
Regarding corrosion, I know several people who removed rubber fuel lines, rubber accellerator pumps, carb gaskets, portions of fuel tank etc. and let them soak in a sealed contaner of E85 for over a year... at the end of the period, there was zero corrosion.
On rubber that is 40 years old, and ready to breakdown on its own, might have problems, but The 15% gas that is in E85 has enough oil in it to lubricate the parts properly and you will not have a problem.
There is a video on Youtube, where someone ran strait E85 in the tank of a surburban for about 145,000 miles or something ridiculous ike that , and they tore it apart just to see what things looked like.
Find the video, and you'll be amazed.
Here in Michigan, I'm considereing offering E85 conversions for people. I"m about to do it for my cars.... just becasue we can get E85 around my house for about 1/2 of what 110 Torco costs.
It does require a carb change as there are far too many things in a GAS carb that are too small. Barry Grant just released an E85 demon carb that will be perfect for most engines running sizable camshafts.
Other achohol converted carbs are close but might require significant tuning to get it close.
I say, go for it, if you think you know what you are doing.
thanks
Aaron
E85 represents 85% ethanol, and carries an octane rating of 105-110.
The reason it burns slower and is less effecient is becasue of the high octane and ethanol.. this is not uncommon with alchohol motors.
in order to make ethanol effecient, you must raise compression...
this is why FLEXFUEL vehicles loose fuel economy.
In a muscle car, where the compression is already up near 11 to 1 (in the case of high performance 60s engines) the ethanol will do just fine.
Regarding corrosion, I know several people who removed rubber fuel lines, rubber accellerator pumps, carb gaskets, portions of fuel tank etc. and let them soak in a sealed contaner of E85 for over a year... at the end of the period, there was zero corrosion.
On rubber that is 40 years old, and ready to breakdown on its own, might have problems, but The 15% gas that is in E85 has enough oil in it to lubricate the parts properly and you will not have a problem.
There is a video on Youtube, where someone ran strait E85 in the tank of a surburban for about 145,000 miles or something ridiculous ike that , and they tore it apart just to see what things looked like.
Find the video, and you'll be amazed.
Here in Michigan, I'm considereing offering E85 conversions for people. I"m about to do it for my cars.... just becasue we can get E85 around my house for about 1/2 of what 110 Torco costs.
It does require a carb change as there are far too many things in a GAS carb that are too small. Barry Grant just released an E85 demon carb that will be perfect for most engines running sizable camshafts.
Other achohol converted carbs are close but might require significant tuning to get it close.
I say, go for it, if you think you know what you are doing.
thanks
Aaron
The problem is that the FlexFuel vehicles can change their fuel metering to let the engine run ok on E85, but it can't alter compression to make the E85 more effecient.
Take two engines of the same cubic engine, one at 9.5 to 1 compression on gas, and the other at 12.5 to one on E85.
Now we are talking apples to apples.
You can bet that any comparison that shows the negatives of E85 are paid for by Oil people.
A
Take two engines of the same cubic engine, one at 9.5 to 1 compression on gas, and the other at 12.5 to one on E85.
Now we are talking apples to apples.
You can bet that any comparison that shows the negatives of E85 are paid for by Oil people.
A
The question I have is this: what sort of fuel economy would you see out of an engine running 12:1 compression on e85? I'm building a new engine for my 77 (a 400SBC with port fuel injection) as soon as the funds become available, and the possibility of running compression like that is most appealing.
My other question: when are we going to start growing that sugar grass that the Brazilians use to make ethanol? It produces a rather impressively better ratio of ethanol produced to material used for production than corn - it seems like the number I've seen is 2.5 times more ethanol for the same weight of feed material.
04-25-2008, 06:07 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
I think you need to read the posts above yours.
Facts. Refreshing.
The question I have is this: what sort of fuel economy would you see out of an engine running 12:1 compression on e85? I'm building a new engine for my 77 (a 400SBC with port fuel injection) as soon as the funds become available, and the possibility of running compression like that is most appealing.
My other question: when are we going to start growing that sugar grass that the Brazilians use to make ethanol? It produces a rather impressively better ratio of ethanol produced to material used for production than corn - it seems like the number I've seen is 2.5 times more ethanol for the same weight of feed material.
Facts. Refreshing.
The question I have is this: what sort of fuel economy would you see out of an engine running 12:1 compression on e85? I'm building a new engine for my 77 (a 400SBC with port fuel injection) as soon as the funds become available, and the possibility of running compression like that is most appealing.
My other question: when are we going to start growing that sugar grass that the Brazilians use to make ethanol? It produces a rather impressively better ratio of ethanol produced to material used for production than corn - it seems like the number I've seen is 2.5 times more ethanol for the same weight of feed material.
Considering an engine specifically set up for E85 vs one set up to run on gasoline, I believe you'll see a significant difference between the two in fuel mileage due solely to the difference in energy content between the two, all else being equal. And, the current government subsidy of $0.51/gallon for ethanol production is set to expire at the end of 2007. Unless congress extends the subsidy (again), consumers may get to pay the market price for ethanol.
So, I'll stay with my statement, "When you consider the cost to convert to E-85 and the significantly lower fuel mileage you'll get per gallon, and the number of miles per year you drive your car, I don't think you'll find it worthwhile." My opinion . . . , your mileage may vary . . . (as the manufacturers are fond of saying)
04-25-2008, 06:17 PM
#30
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St. Jude Donor '07
Thanks much, but I have read the posts above mine. And I've also read the difference in BTU content of typical gasoline vs E85. Most figures quoted range around 80-85,000 BTU/gallon for E-85, and in the range of 112-115,000 BTU/gallon for gasoline. (See the US government figures, for example, at http://earth1.epa.gov/air/caaac/mstr..._10_dunham.pdf, for one source of comparative energy contents.)
Considering an engine specifically set up for E85 vs one set up to run on gasoline, I believe you'll see a significant difference between the two in fuel mileage due solely to the difference in energy content between the two, all else being equal. And, the current government subsidy of $0.51/gallon for ethanol production is set to expire at the end of 2007. Unless congress extends the subsidy (again), consumers may get to pay the market price for ethanol.
So, I'll stay with my statement, "When you consider the cost to convert to E-85 and the significantly lower fuel mileage you'll get per gallon, and the number of miles per year you drive your car, I don't think you'll find it worthwhile." My opinion . . . , your mileage may vary . . . (as the manufacturers are fond of saying)
Considering an engine specifically set up for E85 vs one set up to run on gasoline, I believe you'll see a significant difference between the two in fuel mileage due solely to the difference in energy content between the two, all else being equal. And, the current government subsidy of $0.51/gallon for ethanol production is set to expire at the end of 2007. Unless congress extends the subsidy (again), consumers may get to pay the market price for ethanol.
So, I'll stay with my statement, "When you consider the cost to convert to E-85 and the significantly lower fuel mileage you'll get per gallon, and the number of miles per year you drive your car, I don't think you'll find it worthwhile." My opinion . . . , your mileage may vary . . . (as the manufacturers are fond of saying)
BTW, 2007 has already expired.
(Should have been 2008!!
04-25-2008, 06:52 PM
#32
Melting Slicks
My sons and I getting ready to open an auto repair shop. Can't wait to see the problems incurred when older cars get fed some of the "bargain" E85 fuel 
I heard that one of the reasons E85 is blended with 15% gasoline is so you can't DRINK it
I heard that one of the reasons E85 is blended with 15% gasoline is so you can't DRINK it
04-25-2008, 07:02 PM
#33
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Ethanol is denatured at the ethanol plant before mixing with gasoline I believe (so you can't drink it). So it will kill you before the gasoline is ever mixed to it. (Well... maybe not kill you... but definitely not good for you.)
I believe it's mixed with gasoline for better starting, etc. In our area of the country the E85 ranges from 75% to 85% ethanol depending on the time of the year.
I believe it's mixed with gasoline for better starting, etc. In our area of the country the E85 ranges from 75% to 85% ethanol depending on the time of the year.
04-26-2008, 11:07 AM
#35
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Coskata is a biofuel startup in Illinois can make ethanol from just about anything organic for less than $1 per gallon, and it wouldn't interfere with food supplies, company officials said. Google the Name Coskata, it is a emerging technology. I feel this will be the way of the future. E-85 is a good racing fuel, you have to have the car tuned and setup to optimize the stuff. Ethanol has less energy than gas and gas has less energy than diesel fuel, but ethanol octane is a lot higher, so higher compression equal higher HP, and burns cleaner.
04-26-2008, 12:23 PM
#36
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Distribution logistics don't work with ethanol either - it can't be pipelined, and has to be delivered to gasoline blending terminals via tank trucks or rail tanker cars. Also performs very poorly in cold weather; I've had two E85-capable vehicles over the last six years, and both of them state very clearly in the Owner's Manual NOT to use E85 in ambient temperatures below 32*F due to hard-starting and driveability problems that can't be dealt with.
It's another boondoggle, driven by politicians and environmentalists who don't know a spark plug from a pipe plug. Meanwhile, the price of corn has doubled in the last year, and the price of all the foodstuffs that are made from corn continues to rise (just ask your wife).
It's another boondoggle, driven by politicians and environmentalists who don't know a spark plug from a pipe plug. Meanwhile, the price of corn has doubled in the last year, and the price of all the foodstuffs that are made from corn continues to rise (just ask your wife).
04-26-2008, 02:49 PM
#37
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2007 Chevrolet FlexFuel Hot Rod
Read about it here... powered 4 cylinder that puts out 500hp...
http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/C...xFuel_Hot_Rod/
04-26-2008, 04:07 PM
#38
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Distribution logistics don't work with ethanol either - it can't be pipelined, and has to be delivered to gasoline blending terminals via tank trucks or rail tanker cars. Also performs very poorly in cold weather; I've had two E85-capable vehicles over the last six years, and both of them state very clearly in the Owner's Manual NOT to use E85 in ambient temperatures below 32*F due to hard-starting and driveability problems that can't be dealt with.
It's another boondoggle, driven by politicians and environmentalists who don't know a spark plug from a pipe plug. Meanwhile, the price of corn has doubled in the last year, and the price of all the foodstuffs that are made from corn continues to rise (just ask your wife).
It's another boondoggle, driven by politicians and environmentalists who don't know a spark plug from a pipe plug. Meanwhile, the price of corn has doubled in the last year, and the price of all the foodstuffs that are made from corn continues to rise (just ask your wife).
I had a concern about cold weather with my GTO, but I ended up being surprised at how well it ran, even when very cold (below 0*F).
04-26-2008, 10:40 PM
#39
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C2 of Year Finalist (track prepared) 2019
I'm no fan of ethanol, so don't misunderstand my intent. FYI, though, one pipeline operator, Kinder Morgan, has plans to attempt delivering ethanol by pipe later this year. Here's a link to the newsbite that mentions their forthcoming experiment:
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/artic...rticle_id=4006
Regards,
Jim
04-27-2008, 11:54 AM
#40
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John,
I'm no fan of ethanol, so don't misunderstand my intent. FYI, though, one pipeline operator, Kinder Morgan, has plans to attempt delivering ethanol by pipe later this year. Here's a link to the newsbite that mentions their forthcoming experiment:
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/artic...rticle_id=4006
Regards,
Jim
I'm no fan of ethanol, so don't misunderstand my intent. FYI, though, one pipeline operator, Kinder Morgan, has plans to attempt delivering ethanol by pipe later this year. Here's a link to the newsbite that mentions their forthcoming experiment:
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/artic...rticle_id=4006
Regards,
Jim